Ep 26: Customers, Strategy and Campaigns with Helen Kettleborough, Gleeds
Hello and welcome to Marketing In Times of Recovery, the bi-weekly built environment marketing podcast. And I’m your host Ayo Abbas, founder and director of Abbas Marketing. Today my guest is Helen Kettlebrorough from Gleeds. Gleeds is a company whose marketing has caught my attention in the past few years for being smart, distinctive and colourful.
In our conversation, we cover how Gleeds marketing is:
moving towards being more strategic and customer-focused
taking a sector-focused and campaign led approach
having a clear brand and tone of voice that is both professional and playful
using LinkedIn to drive relationships and business
This episode was recorded on 26 October 2021.
Resources
Abbas Marketing
Gleeds
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Transcript.
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello, and welcome to Marketing In Times of Recovery. I'm your host, Ayo Abbas, the founder and director of Abbas Marketing, which is a built environment marketing consultancy. Today, my guest is Helen Kettleborough, who is from Gleeds. Gleeds is a company whose marketing I've admired very much in the past few years. Because basically, it's smart. It's distinctive, and it's colourful, which are all things that I really do love. They're also taking a campaign based thought leadership approach, which basically is music to my ears as well. In our conversation, we look at how their marketing team has moved away from being the colouring in department to becoming more of a strategic adviser, how they're now taking a sector based approach and how they're helping that kind of happen in their business. We also look at their tone of voice and in terms of them being professional, but also playful. Anyway, if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social media, it really, really does help us spread the word. And also, if you've got a chance, why not leave us a review on Apple podcasts, because it is really, really lovely to hear what you think as well. Anyway, I'll stop talking so you can start listening. Bye, bye. Hi, Helen, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you just give me a bit of an intro to who you are and your role at Gleeds?
Helen Kettleborough 01:24
Sure. So I'm Global Marketing and Communications Director at Gleeds. It's quite a broad remit across internal communications, external communications and marketing. Gleeds is a property and construction consultancy. So massive global opportunity. And we have around 2000 people over 70 offices. And with a big growth ambition to double our turnover and the number of people in the global business over the next three to four years. So massive task but massive opportunity.
Ayo Abbas 01:59
Gleeds originally was a QS firm, wasn't it? Because I was looking back and thinking Gleeds, were like, Davis Langdon, and things like Turner and Townsend and things like that. That's kind of how you originated wasn't it? I hadn't realised you'd changed so much over the past 20 years, it's quite a big, you've kind of grown your remit quite a lot. I mean, what's the kind of split I guess across that?
Helen Kettleborough 02:19
We still are QS business. But it's broadening into that wider field of cost management, project management, then all sorts of specialist skills that are within the business that enable our clients to achieve what they need to from specialist tax advice through to dispute advisory. So the fundamental of the business is still absolutely there. It's part of our core, it's part of our DNA, it's part of who we are. But we've grown and expanded that capability to essentially a more sophisticated offering into the marketplace.
Ayo Abbas 02:53
Fantastic. Thank you for that I was just hadn't realised what you covered. So I was like, oh okay. So in terms of the last 18 months to two years, what challenges have you and your team kind of found in terms of how you've been marketing.
Helen Kettleborough 03:08
I actually only joined the business in March this year. So I joined at a really, really interesting point. I think in our heads, everyone was starting to come out of the COVID pandemic, and really starting to look to the future, and where do we need to go because all of a sudden, the world of construction just started to go mad crazy. With all of the build back better projects, not just in the UK, but elsewhere in the world, as a general restarting and reigniting of lots of opportunities across so many of the markets that we're working in. So I think some of the bigger challenges have been sort of going through that switch of, essentially, what happened during COVID and the role of an in house marketing team during that peak of the COVID pandemic, which I wasn't within Gleeds for, but that was a lot about maintaining things, managing COVID orientated communications internally and externally. But then looking at how do we flick the switch from sitting in that COVID world to looking at how do we actually go back out into the world of opportunity again, and I think particularly because in the backgrounds, it bleeds over the last 18 months, the business has been very much looking at moving from, say, a service approach to a sector based approach to how it wants to approach the markets. And part of the reason that I joined the business was to really look at how we can ignite that sector based approach to our markets, because we see that as pretty key to the global growth opportunity that exists for a business like us.
Ayo Abbas 04:50
So rather than looking at the services per se, it's more about sectors and going in and...
Helen Kettleborough 04:51
I think there's a given within Gleeds that the services are an exceptionally high standard and is so well respected within its markets. It's now really focusing in where those services can make a difference in the sectors that we think have some of the best growth opportunity for us.
Ayo Abbas 05:15
So how do you flick the switch towards a more sector based approach? How do you galvanise people to start working in that way?
Helen Kettleborough 05:26
I think one of the biggest changes has been really thinking about things from the customer perspective. I know people talk a lot about customer value proposition. But that for me been a very important part of how we've started to approach the sectors. And it's really been looking at one or two sectors to start off with, because we have a number of different sectors that we're looking at and looking to prioritise. But taking one or two of those sectors, looking at how we turn the thought process from the fact that we are we do this sector to what does it mean for our customers in this sector? How can we support and enable our customers the tasks that they need to think they need to do, the objectives they need to achieve within the sectors that they're working in? So we've started off with one specific sector, which is actually quite a big sector for us in our infrastructure markets. And it's starting to change and shift how we approach the sector thinking about it from a value proposition in terms of the customer. And then what does it actually mean for the marketing outputs and starting to rethink some of those marketing outputs, as to how we can make a different connection with the customer. So they actually understand that we have the ability to be able to support them on a much wider range of projects within the sectors and markets that they're concentrating on.
Ayo Abbas 06:52
So it's opening up more opportunities going in by that sector approach, because you can really support them, I guess, isn't it?
Helen Kettleborough 06:59
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, looking at the work we've been doing in the infrastructure markets, you know, some of that has been work has been, I would say, at a more basic level, which is actually just, helping the market understand that we have a very powerful offer for clients within a number of different sub sectors of infrastructure, and then looking at how do we actually start to make a connection with the customers and demonstrating our understanding of that market, to be able to kick off those conversations and start the customer journey. And I think that's been another interesting part of the transition that we're starting to work on. In B2B marketing, I think it's changed a lot over the last 10 to 15 years. And it's just evolved. If I was sat here having this interview with you, say 15 years ago, this would be a completely different conversation.
Ayo Abbas 07:54
Absolutely. It was a lot more narrow, wasn't it? And a lot more dry.
Helen Kettleborough 07:59
Yes, it was. I think all I had to do was sort of say, This is who we are, this is what we do. This is where we do it. Please come and do business with me. And if you did that really well, you'd probably do very well. It was about turning up at the right trade show, it would be about making sure that your business was mentioned in all the right media titles. Now, in delivery, a lot of that still hasn't changed. But I think how you behave and the story that you tell, and then some of the activity that you do to build a longer term relationship has changed significantly. So this is not just about awareness raising, which I think is probably what we could do quite easily in the early days, it's now really thinking about how we build that customer journey using the value proposition to look at taking a long term relationship, because in B2B markets it can take a really long time to take from a first contact through to actually signing a contract to do a piece of business because of the nature of the markets and projects that we work in and we operate in.
Ayo Abbas 09:05
Yeah, it's a very long, long time, long lead time, isn't it? And that's what you have to get used to. I think the other thing is, in terms of B2B marketing, there's a lot more competition now. So before, you look at 15 years ago, there weren't that many voices actually out there talking. And I think that's the other thing, it's a much more saturated market, actually, to get your voice heard. It's just that much harder as well. So in terms of your approach to a sector based approach, has your brand changed since you've arrived or because, I mean, your brand's lovely by the way, I love Gleeds. But actually, it's fun, it's playful. It's got a certain look to it. And actually your tone of voice as well. It's not crazy, academic or stiff. It's actually, you've got a nice tone of voice. It's approachable and accessible, which I think is important. Has that evolved since you've arrived or was that an ongoing journey for Gleeds?
Helen Kettleborough 10:02
I think it's a real ongoing journey for Gleeds, we've really started to change how we present ourselves through, so for example, social media channels, and how we present ourselves going from, I think, the more stuffy approach to social media, which is we're delighted to tell you that we have x, y, and z.
Ayo Abbas 10:19
I won this award I'm very proud.
Helen Kettleborough 10:22
This is a journey that's really Gleeds has been on before I joined as well, so but we're looking at how we accelerate that through to something that's much more about much more about creating a conversation, engaging with people and things that we think that will be of interest to them. And that's from the customers we're trying to target within sectors, through to the people we're trying to attract into the business as well. It's not just about customers, when you're growing business it's that story, you need to tell around why we're a great place to work too. But the actual creative delivery of the Gleeds brand, I think has been very carefully nurtured over a long period of time, around professionalism, our independence, the quality of our people, because we do have real personality. And it's a very well respected and very well trusted business. Our UK client satisfaction data is a huge amount of support from customers and clients for what we do. I think 97% of customers appreciate and value what our teams in the UK deliver. And I know that's replicated in our various different bases around the world. So that brand has been very, very carefully nurtured. I think the thing that we really want to do with the brand going forward is, when you are part of the Gleeds business, the welcome you get into this business from everybody here is just phenomenal. It's just been the most fantastic experience. And you really quickly just appreciate so many things about the culture of Gleeds. And I think what we want to do now is look at very carefully about how we, into our brand narrative, start to pull out more of that culture story in terms of the core story that we want to tell about our brand, because I think it's really differentiating. And I think you made a very good point earlier, the markets that we're in are super competitive now, there's a lot of people who can offer, you know, the same things that Gleeds does, I don't think as well as Gleeds does, because we're a specialist, and we really, the people in this business really know what they're doing. But you do have to look harder at the differentiating factors at the type of business we are and what we're like to work with. And I think Gleeds just has this amazing culture of how it works with its clients, the collaboration, the advice, and the nature and the way that we deliver projects that we need to bring out more strongly in our brand as it evolves. But visually, I think we're in a, probably a really sweet spot at the moment because it's got a very distinctive look and feel to it, and you can play with it. But there's a real distinctiveness that sort of connects it. And that's something we absolutely don't want to lose. And I think it's part of what makes us very recognisable within our markets.
Ayo Abbas 13:25
No it does, I mean your brand definitely does carry across everywhere I've seen it, it's distinctive, and it does stand out, which is lovely. But yeah, it's quite interesting. So how do you, in terms of getting that internal culture and sharing that more of your clients so they understand more on it, what kind of process do you think you're going to take to do that, or look to do next year to bring that out and draw that out?
Helen Kettleborough 13:48
I think one of the things that I think is gonna be really important within this is becoming more people orientated, in terms of how we present ourselves. Just going back to the the sector strategy that we're building at the moment, each of those sectors has a really great lead and head to them. And it's about how we take in the voice of those individuals into the marketplace that I think starts to tell that story in a very powerful way for us. We've already been building work, particularly in support of our recruitment campaigns, whereby we're having different individuals talk about their experience of being part of Gleeds, and we certainly want to build on that, I think that now needs connecting to the technical leads within the business and to be able to express what that culture enables. But through a sector lens, basically.
Ayo Abbas 14:44
So I guess, in a way, you're toying with that whole personal brand versus corporate branding, isn't it is that kind of balance, which actually, I've been talking a lot about on LinkedIn the last few days, and it's that balance of, I guess, where does it go in terms of that pendulum and that swing isn't there and you're kind of tipping now more towards the personal to get those characters out and those kind of people stories out really? I guess are you?
Helen Kettleborough 15:06
Yeah, absolutely I think that you're always at a point I think in some of these markets where the technical capability almost becomes a hygiene factor. And it's the additional value that you bring. And that additional value, you can express in all sorts of different ways. So your thought leadership, through demonstrating the projects that you're working on. But at the end of the day, it comes back down to the people. And I think my experience of this business is that it's a great group of people, many of whom have been in this business for a very long time. So understand their markets, their industries, and what makes a difference to clients really, really well. And it's such a fundamental part of the culture, to express that back through the people I think, is an exceptionally powerful thing for us to do.
Ayo Abbas 15:56
In terms of thought leadership and campaigns, how have you been tackling that?
Helen Kettleborough 16:01
Well, at the end of the day, everything we do is all about creating a connection between us in the business and our customers that deliver some sort of change or reaction. So there's that sort of basic thought process running through pretty much everything we do and how we're approaching it. So rather than just running into the fact that we want the world to know that we do something, which if you live your life at all in an in house marketing and communications team, getting our name out there is something that people come and talk to you about a lot, we need to get our name out there.
Ayo Abbas 16:41
For what? For what? Give me the story!
Helen Kettleborough 16:43
Totally. It's sort of the one question that sometimes when people come and talk to you is that your heart sinks just for a moment. But it's all about helping people understand the strategic value that good marketing can bring. And you do that by asking just lots and lots of questions, and really starting to try and understand what the marketing outcomes that we need to achieve, what do we need to be famous for? And, what process timeline are we working to, to be able to make this happen. And we're using those conversations to then shift a thought process and start to put a campaign mindset in place, that enables us to think more precisely about what we're going to do. Because I think the other part of the challenge, in marketing we'll always say, we never have enough money to do what we need to do. But what you can do is think smart in these circumstances, and look at how you put focus into it. So rather than trying to do everything for everybody within an organisation, and Gleeds is no different, I've been through a lot of different organisations where we've had this conversation, let's just say, this part of the business works really well. But we're not going to touch that, right now we're going to focus our effort and our resource into three or four things that are going to make the biggest difference. And of course, there's always going to be that background chat about, oh, we need to do this, and we need to do that. And that is part of the life of being in an in house team. But moving a stronger focus around a smaller number of things that are going to make a bigger difference is very much the approach that we're taking, and looking at how that then translates into a campaign. And really starting to work with our colleagues to understand what that customer journey is, how they actually win business, and how we can influence something, and been a partner to the sales and of the process. Rather than these two parts of the business living in splendid isolation, and occasionally throwing bricks at each other. It's building the partnerships, so we can actually make a bigger difference with less. And then using that as hopefully over the sort of more medium term to prove that we're actually adding real genuine value.
Ayo Abbas 19:07
I love campaigns, that's what I love. And I always think it has that compounding effect as well. People get used to you, you find the right topic and that hook. And actually, for me, you don't need a huge budget it's actually a lot of it is having conversations with people, and it's in their heads. And you start talking to your sector experts, if you know how to draw it out, then all of a sudden, you're like, this is the content that we need to start sharing, and that doesn't have to be expensive. And I think there is this thing of Oh, no, I need a brochure. It's like, actually no, you can actually come up with a really good thought leadership from a conversation. And then that builds into something else and understanding your clients and they find that valuable.
Helen Kettleborough 19:43
It's interesting how many times in my career I've been asked, I really need a brochure for this. But sometimes people do need something to give them the confidence to go out and do the job that they need to do. So while I do joke about it, I think there's probably sometimes quite a serious underlying question that's driving that request. And you do need to think about how you're dealing with that. Because, you know, people need to know the story. And I think that that's where we're putting the energy is not just creating a brochure for brochures, sake, is looking at what's the story that you need to tell your clients? What's the understanding, you need to demonstrate for the client and taking a different approach to literature. And it's a really interesting project that we're currently working on. That is starting to get some real traction with some of this sort of sector heads, who are sort of saying that it is quite different, but actually, it is actually really genuinely helpful. Rather than a kitchen sink brochure, which is maybe more typical type of equity you might see within our industry, not just from Gleeds, but from many other businesses as well.
Ayo Abbas 20:54
Oh, completely. It's a project book quite often, isn't it? We've done in that sector, and then you cut it. Okay, so what was different about this one, and that one, the colour? But no, you're absolutely right. But I love the idea that you're actually supporting people and how to understand the literature and use it as well. Because I think that's the missing part, isn't it? People kind of sit there and go, well, it was just a brochure, you just give it to them, right? And it's like, well, no, actually, this tells a story and supports you in this way. And it's just showing people I guess, how to use it. If it's not your day job, then it's harder.
Helen Kettleborough 21:24
And I'm really excited, actually, at the moment about some of the work we're doing in that space. I think in the next month or so we're going to have some really nice conclusions to share with the wider business. And I'm really hoping that they're going to be as excited about it as I am. The initial feedbacks been great. And we're doing something with, I would say, a fraction of the words and a fraction of the number of case studies that we might previously have used, but looking at how you can turn that in, actually, for more powerful story. And I feel it's a really important part of some of the transition that we're starting to make happen within know, within the business.
Ayo Abbas 22:00
Wow, that sounds really interesting. I'm gonna be looking out for that when that does come out.
Helen Kettleborough 22:07
I hope you like it.
Ayo Abbas 22:09
I love your stuff. So I should do. What channels do you think have been working well for you at the moment? Is there any particular things you're looking at? Now and what you're looking at in the future?
Helen Kettleborough 22:22
Yeah well, couple of things. LinkedIn is something that, I'm a huge fan of LinkedIn. And, but I think it's about LinkedIn being a tool for the whole business and how you engage the whole business. And I'm not an expert in algorithms, but organic LinkedIn can be quite a powerful thing if you get it right. So we manage our LinkedIn output really carefully. And it's increased, I think, over the last year and a half, before I joined the business, I think everyone will be starting to appreciate, what LinkedIn made possible. But it's a really interesting dynamic, I think, between a traditional marketing department whereby the marketing department does everything and no one else touches it. And LinkedIn, I think, starts to blur that boundary, because everyone has the opportunity to be part of the marketing team, and actually getting more and more people engaged in doing their own LinkedIn, but in a managed and curated way. So they have the confidence to go out and know they're doing the right thing, rather than creating the status, people can be quite scared of doing it. Because they don't want to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing. And, you know, create problems, what we're looking at is we're actually doing internal training and workshops, to help educate our colleagues as to how they can become part of that LinkedIn success story, through the work that they do in LinkedIn. In its most basic, it's just like and share things. Like, share and comment are the basics, and as you start to build that activity, you start to build your profile, but also helping the more proactive individuals develop their own content, which then if you connect it in with your own formal company accounts, you started to create something very dynamic in that environment. And I think that's really interesting. We've been doing a lot of work on that front.
Ayo Abbas 24:22
I mean, how have people been, have people been open to that? Because that's quite a scary thing, isn't it? I think people get a lot of anxiety about LinkedIn and posting and 'Am I gonna get fired?', which is really bad. Yeah.
Helen Kettleborough 24:35
Yeah. So we work really closely with the in house compliance team to ensure that our LinkedIn social media guidelines are all in the right place with the right advice. And so there's a very formal framework that sits around it. But it's like anything else, you find the people who are most enthusiastic and help them and then use those people as the trailblazers to get more people involved. And initially, our initial workshops on how to use LinkedIn, how to develop your profile, how to start engaging more with content that you think that would help you reach out to your customers. It's just simple things like tagging someone who you think might be interested in a piece of our thought leadership. A lot of people don't know how to do that, and are very nervous about doing it. So we're working really hard on helping people understand how to do it, helping them understand what they should and shouldn't do, and really trying to give them the confidence to do more. And we're already starting to see our stats change as a result. So I'm really excited about that. And also, of course, the LinkedIn traffic is very important in terms of how we're pulling people through to our website and starting to catch that interest and build relationships, which sort of goes into the other area of investment that we've taken quite seriously over the last few months, which is bringing in a marketing automation platform in so we can actually start to do more with the interest that we're creating. Because given the scale and size of our business, and given our growth ambition and the number of markets that we're working across, we have started to invest and make some discreet investment in very specific digital tools that are going to help us do more with what we have.
Ayo Abbas 26:20
That's fantastic. Now, I think definitely what you're saying in terms of LinkedIn, as well, and just giving people support to understand how to use it. And that's it, and I love LinkedIn, yeah.
Helen Kettleborough 26:30
There's lots of horrible, apocryphal stories out there that someone got their wrist slapped by saying the wrong thing on LinkedIn, and of course, occasionally, people do make mistakes, or just get over enthusiastic about what they're doing. But if you're helping people understand what the framework is that they're working with, and you're giving people the space to be confident in. And I think that's what makes a difference, and starts to engage more and more people in the marketing output of the organisation.
Ayo Abbas 26:59
I think in LinkedIn training as well just always remember when you show people 'Oh look isn't that one of your clients?' and they kind of go, 'Yes', and you go 'Look, your competitors are talking to them on LinkedIn', and you show them and they're like 'Woah' it's like, well, it's there as a digital platform. And if you're not there, you could be missing out. It's another way to network, isn't it?
Helen Kettleborough 27:17
I think LinkedIn at the moment is really important in the whole market for professional services, I really do. We're probably less visible on other social media platforms. And I think we need to do quite a bit more work at some point on some of our work across some of the other social media platforms but we've chosen LinkedIn as the platform to focus on, back to that you're always going to have a limited resource. So let's focus on what can make the biggest difference. And in our view, LinkedIn is the platform that I make the biggest difference to us right now. But there's obviously other social media platforms out there that we do engage with, but maybe not in quite such an intense way, as we're doing with LinkedIn right now. And I think that's one of the other follow throughs of the COVID pandemic, is that a lot of people and they might previously not have engaged in LinkedIn are now, and for me that's increasing and increasing the opportunity of that LinkedIn activity, because I think more and more people have actually seen how useful it is.
Ayo Abbas 28:21
Are you going to explore things like pay channels on LinkedIn, or ads or any of that kind of stuff?
Helen Kettleborough 28:26
Yes, we are just actually right now, kicking off some small campaigns around paid work on LinkedIn, just to see what difference it makes to us. And that's very linked to one of our specific sectors. So it's, we've taken one of our sectors, we've created a whole new range of collateral around it from a webinar through to a market report through to thought leadership. And we're now connecting that into some of the target audiences that we want to reach on LinkedIn through paid activity. And literally, that is just kicking off this week. So we're testing a number of different ways of doing that, to see if it actually helps us and gets our content into the faces, so to speak, of the target clients that we really want start building relationships with.
Ayo Abbas 29:20
I think it's always good to test isn't it? And yeah, how it goes. And that's what's so great about digital at the moment is you can do that for a relatively low cost.
Helen Kettleborough 29:27
I know and I think then the team is actually having quite a lot of fun with that. Because they can start to see how you can experiment, what we can learn and what does that mean, in terms of where we go next? Because what might be right for your experience in one company could be very different for what works in the client base at a different company.
Ayo Abbas 29.52
So how do you define success for your marketing?
Helen Kettleborough 29.55
I find this topic and this question really sometimes quite difficult to answer. Over the past few months, we've been just putting a whole load of metrics in place. And in particular, we're getting an automation platform, we're gonna have data that can tell you who's had a cup of tea in the morning, you know what it's like, there's a vast amount of detail within those metrics that have been set up, which, of course, is exceptionally useful for demonstrating campaign success. And the learning in terms of, you know, who's done what, with what, what was our most successful, piece of content of going through those new customer leads that were really interested in. But I think, ultimately, if we're doing proper strategic marketing, I think the measures become quite simple. Because it's around, has the business achieved its goals, because we contribute to that, are our customers satisfied? Because we contribute to that. And what is the employee satisfaction data within the business? Because, again, the internal side of this is equally important. It's how we've contributed to that. So as well as looking at the specific metrics, our campaign objectives, have we achieved them, what did what did we manage to do? What will the metrics look like? What have we learned? What does that data tell us, but the end of the day, marketing success should be looked at alongside the overall success of a business. Because that's what we're here to deliver. That's what we're here to make happen. We're a partner to the business, not a service of the business. And if we can look at long term success of Gleeds or any other organisation that you're part of, and know that you've contributed to the overall business goals, whatever that plan might be. They're the measures that you ultimately need to look to, because that's about has this business done what it needed to do? And have I played my role in helping make that happen?
Ayo Abbas 31:54
Okay, so on to my final question. What one tip, would you give a business leader looking to make their mark, I guess, as we go into 2022, in marketing, so what one tip would you give them?
Helen Kettleborough 32:06
Okay, I actually had two thoughts on this, because I knew you were going to ask me this question. I thought very deeply about it. And I think one important tip is internal communications. If you're developing the external profile of your business, it needs to be reflected in the internal conversation that anyone might have with each other or with the clients. And you must follow through from what you're saying externally to what people believe and say internally and I think that joined up mindset is just critical. But I also think the other top tip at the moment is thinking very carefully about how you address sustainability and the journey to the net zero agenda. I'm seeing a lot of unauthentic commentary around Net Zero, particularly in the run up to COP. And I think you have to really think about what is authentic for your business and really mean what you say.
Ayo Abbas 33:10
And also be able to back it up.
Helen Kettleborough 33:13
Yeah, the younger generation are going to call you out, and they're the people that you need for your business to succeed in the long term. So I think that it's interesting, just observing the plethora of business commentary that's been going on over the last few weeks as COP26 has gotten closer. And I think you can really start to spot the companies that have a really authentic story and are actually doing something very genuine to enable the climate resilience and engaging that climate resilience challenge, versus companies who are really just greenwashing it and saying what they think they need to say, but don't come over as authentic. And I think that you'll start to see a divide between the companies that are genuine and the companies that aren't, and I think the younger generation who you need for your long term success, are going to call you out on it.
Ayo Abbas 34:08
I think on that note you are completely and utterly right. Thank you so much for your time, Helen. Have you enjoyed it?
Helen Kettleborough 34:14
Thank you. It was great. You asked great questions you made me really think about what we do.
Ayo Abbas 32:24
Thanks so much for listening to the latest episode of Marketing In Times of Recovery, and I'm your host Ayo Abbas. If you want to find out more about the bi-weekly show do check out the show notes which will give you more information about who the guests are and all the things we've covered. And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, make sure you hit the subscribe button so you don't miss out on an episode. Until next time, bye.
