Ep 71 : Finding the right marketing approach as a small architecture practice, Jon Clayton
Welcome to The Built Environment Marketing Show.
Today’s special episode is part I of a podcast crossover episode. So, I’m interviewing Jon Clayton who hosts the Architecture Business Club podcast, And then he interviewed me for Part II of the crossover over on his podcast that you can listen to here.
Enjoy.
In Jon’s interview for part 1 he talked about:
The evolution of digital marketing and how he’s always tended to take a digital-first approach to marketing his practice.
The importance of building a strong personal brand in architecture
Local marketing for architecture firms and the need to get stuck in.
Networking and community engagement and how it can benefit all aspects of your business and mindset.
How he’s developed websites over the years
How he has taken a productised approach to market his design services.
Once you’ve finished listening to part I, make sure you head over to the Architecture Business Club here https://architecture-business-club.captivate.fm/listen to hear part II of the crossover interview where Jon interviews me about digital marketing for architecture firms.
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About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is hosted by marketing consultant and content creator Ayo Abbas. It is unashamedly about marketing for architects and engineers, as well as bringing forward voices that we don't always get to hear.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello, and welcome to The Built Environment Marketing Show. The show is hosted by me Ayo Abbas. I am a marketing consultant and I deliver marketing strategy, content creation, speaking and training services for architects and engineers. Today's episode is a special crossover one, where I will be interviewing my guest, Jon Clayton as part one of the interview. And then over on his podcast, the architecture Business Club, he will be interviewing me, which will be part two of the interview. There's a link in the show notes so you can find that episode. And it's also available in the main podcast places too. In my interview with Jon, we talk about how he markets his small practice, and how that's evolved over time. We also take a really deep dive into websites and how he's tackled creating the ones for his business. We also look at his coaching and consultancy business, and how he learns and where he gets his inspiration for what he's going to do next for his business. So I'll stop speaking so you can get on with listening. Enjoy.
Ayo Abbas 01:14
Hi, Jon, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Can you give me a brief intro to who you are, and all that you do?
Jon Clayton 01:20
It's a pleasure to be here Ayo. My name is Jon Clayton. I help sole practitioners in architecture and small architecture firm leaders to enjoy more freedom, flexibility and fulfillment in what they do. And I do that through coaching and consulting. I'm also a chartered architectural technologist. And I've been working in the architecture industry for over 25 years. And I spent over a decade as a sole practitioner, and I'm also a podcast host. I'm the host of The Architecture Business Club podcast.
Ayo Abbas 01:56
Yeah. I know, I love podcasting, as do you, well done on that podcasting is one of those things where you like, it's a lot of work, but it's really good fun as well. And so when you started out, I guess, as an architectural technologist all those years ago. What was your approach to marketing your business and business development, then?
Jon Clayton 02:13
That's a great question. So my approach when I when I first started out my my first business in architecture, it started as a side hustle. And as a bit of a perfectionist, I think there's there's a lot of perfectionist out there working in architecture, it's all about the detail and all of that. It took me ages to get started, I spent months trying to write a business plan this, that and the other. But interestingly, the approach to begin with, actually, it was a digital first approach. And the reason was because I was working in another practice and started this side hustle. And I wanted to just do projects with home owners that were doing home extensions, or home renovation projects, because really, I thought, that's the thing right now that I've been doing a few of those jobs on the side anyway, as many of my myself and my colleagues used to do. And I thought, yeah, that's something that I could do alongside this existing job. I did go and speak to my employers about it. And they said, Yeah, that's fine. You know, as long as we're not interested in those little jobs anyway, so. But I also thought, like, I was trying to be future focused and thinking about, well, if I want to grow this business, I might want to attract customers outside of the local area. So I thought maybe like an online approach, like an online architectural service company, for homeowners, I thought, how cool would that be? And this, this was before pretty much everyone else that's doing it now did it. So I was quite, there was like, one of the business that I found that was offering this service, and the website was rubbish. And I thought, that's what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do that. So I set up a website, I had a friend who had a web agency, and he managed to give me a really great deal to get the website done. So I invested the little money that I had, went in the website. And then we got started and that the vision to begin with was this whole idea that it was going to be this online architecture service company. It's not quite how it worked out, because what happened was, inquiry started to come in. And a lot of them were via the website, but what I was finding was that the local inquiries were just so much easier to convert, because you could go and meet the customer in person. And then what happened is, it kind of went a little bit off track that I had this original idea, but then when it came to actually implementing the plan, after we built the website, I got sidelines because I was saying yes to all of the local projects that came in and then those led on to more local projects. And then what happened is it, it ended up becoming like many other local architectural companies whereby we're heavily reliant on referrals. Because you know, all of the projects, then were, were in this kind of small, local geographic area, which was a blessing and a curse, which we can, we can probably explore in a little bit more detail as we continue the conversation.
Ayo Abbas 05:26
That's fascinating. You had one of the first websites doing that is that it's quite, I guess, this will be, ahead of its time really wasn't it? But it's, it's, yeah, but it's interesting, though, the word of mouth kind of won that one, that won the way in a way, wasn't it?
Jon Clayton 05:41
It did. Yeah, I think, at the time, I mean, I, I didn't really care too much about where where the customers were based, but because, I kind of, I didn't put as much effort into converting the inquiries from other areas. And and basically, my digital strategy didn't really extend any more than the website, I was, I think, naively thought, with my lack of education around digital marketing thought that the website on its own was enough kind of this, like, if we build it, they will come.
Ayo Abbas 06:20
They will come from wherever, that's the thing unless like, and it's like, how are you going to service that? Right? Yeah,
Jon Clayton 06:25
but it's not just that is it? I mean, the website is just one piece of the puzzle when it comes to digital marketing. And I think that I didn't, I didn't really have any ongoing strategy in place. And then I just got busy with the local projects that came in, and then that's what I ended up leading into at the time.
Ayo Abbas 06:42
Fantastic? And how was your kind of that your, your, for your company? How's that brand evolved over time? How has it changed? How's it morphed from that original website?
Jon Clayton 06:53
Oh, it's changed a lot. Ayo, yeah. I mean to begin with it, the name, the traded name to begin was Complete Plans and this came out of a brainstorming session with the web agency, and their staff, we were thrown around all sorts of different ideas. And it was like, you know, the customers that we're aiming for, it's the small projects, domestic markets or loft conversions, house extensions, what is it they're looking for? What is it they want, and often it was, oh, the builders told us, we need some plans. So we that's what we want to do. Just draw them, you know, give us the drawings. And so that's kind of how the name came about. I kept that name for I think few years. And then what happened was we we got to a point, it would be around 2015, 2016, where we decided to relocate from where we were living in Lancashire, to East Anglia, into Norfolk. And that point that either went through a name change, and the reasoning behind it at the time was that I thought that I'm moving into a different market, the the biggest city of any size was Cambridge. So that was the biggest kind of place where I thought there was going to be lots of customers. So I thought, rather than trying to focus on the little market town where we were going to be living in North-west Norfolk, that I will be focusing more on Cambridge, and I thought, I want to offer a fuller service, the clients have got more money to spend, they're going to be higher value projects, they're not just going to want the design and plans, they're going to want a full architectural service, the name then change to Complete Architecture, the website was redesigned. So we had then it was Complete Architecture for a while. And then it went through another transition where I then started trading using my own name, which was something that I had previously, I previously resisted it. Because I, for whatever reason, and this is bizarre in that actually, that's, it's one of the most common things that like you see, architecture firms out there. And it's always, you know, like Jon Smith Design or JC design or whatever. Yeah, yeah, but I, I didn't do that. And then I got to this point where I was like this name, it doesn't work anymore. Because I was wanting to change up some of the services that I was offering. I was interested in exploring other opportunities, like creating courses and, and also dropping some of the services because having been focusing on that different audience for a little while, I realised that there was some elements of it that I'd actually didn't enjoy as much or they were just really high maintenance, and it made some ways made the business less scalable. So then I was like, actually, I want to kind of like, change things up again, you know, not necessarily take a backward step and go back to what we had before and I was at a inperson mastermind event in London like a one day event, and I got a chance to pose this question to the room. And I was like, I don't know what to do. It used to be called this business. And now it's this name. And I'm wondering what you should be next. And, like, I'm not happy with either the previous options, and it needs to change and, and somebody just said, like, Jon, why don't you just use your own name? Just use your own name. And I was like, Okay. Not really. And it was so obvious. Really, I thought, well, I don't really kind of thought of that. But kind of, he said, Well, yeah. Because if you use your name, then it's like, you can whatever pivots, you make whatever changes you like to be, right. Yeah. Because you're never going to change the name. So most people aren't going to change the name. Unless you get married, perhaps. I'm not done this. There's still time. There's still time. So yeah, that's kind of kind of what happened. And then, more recently, since I started the podcast last year, I recognise that that was something kind of separate, I actually realized that there was there was pros and cons to using my own name that what I started doing without realizing it was starting to build and cultivate my personal brand. Yeah. Because I was, I was also using my name as like the business trading name. And then when we got to the point of going to launch this podcast, I thought, actually, there needs to be some separation. I still want to be able to cultivate and grow my personal brand, but I don't want it to just be the Jon Clayton show, because that doesn't really encompass.
Ayo Abbas 11:41
it doesn't say much does it, that's the thing, isn't it? Yeah.
Jon Clayton 11:45
Yeah. I mean, I think if you're some kind of like, I mean, like, if you're Beyonce or something, you could have the Beyonce show, and everyone would know who you are. But you're
Ayo Abbas 11:52
you're the new Taylor Swift is that we're going with this.
Jon Clayton 11:55
Well, I don't know about Taylor Swift. But you get the idea. I mean, if you're somebody like Gary Vee, or somebody, you know, one of these big business gurus, you can of course you could you can have a podcast, that's your name. But you know, when it's, I thought actually a name that was just something a bit more obvious to what it's about, which is where the kind of Architecture Business Club came about, because it's conversations about the business side of architecture, and the club element being that it's about trying to build community and trying to build a community.
Ayo Abbas 12:27
It's also about discoverability, isn't it? So it's about if I'm searching for Spotify looking for something, and I can go oh, that does what I need it kind of that's, that's also part of the name, isn't it? If you haven't got absolutely. It's a lot to do with that. It's like your podcast name. Tell people what they're going to be getting from it. And that?
Jon Clayton 12:46
Yeah, yeah, it's SEO friendly. And as you say, those are the words that somebody's looking for architecture podcasts about business, they're going to type in those words, and hopefully, my shows one of the shows that comes up.
Ayo Abbas 12:59
Fantastic. Okay, so next question. So when you moved to Norfolk, did you have to kind of reset I know, when we spoke previously, you said that you had to kind of you had to basically start from scratch? Because you didn't, the market wasn't there, and your contacts were elsewhere in Lancashire? How did you do that? Or how did you kind of realize you need to try something different? Yeah.
Jon Clayton 13:24
So there's what I did. And there's what I would do now. And they're both two very different things. So what I did was I did some market research in advance, which was a sensible thing to do. I decided in my mind that I needed to change the name and do this rebrand. To be honest with hindsight, I didn't really need to do that. Like that actually wasn't really necessary, in my opinion. Now, looking back in hindsight, but I did do that. And a couple of other things that I did was I in advance, I took a trip down to Cambridge, I had family that lived in Cambridge, and I went and tested out a coworking office there, to just see what it was like to get the experience of working in Cambridge. I set up a virtual address there. So in prior to moving we had a Google listing in Cambridge with a local phone number, and a local address at that business center. And yeah, and those were the kind of the main things that I did. The other thing that I did is when after we moved, I kept my I switched my address, I think, yeah, at that time, I had a physical office on the high street, but what I did is I switched that to a virtual office address our business center in Lancaster, because I thought that, you know, I'm not just going to rock up in Cambridge and just have a flood of new inquiries, I thought I'm probably still going to be a little bit reliant on some of the Yeah. So what happened was I set up a virtual address, the phone number stayed the same. So to all intents purposes, inquiries would come in. And the perception was that I still had a presence and was still serving clients in Lancashire, as well as in East Anglia. And it worked in that I still had this constant stream of inquiries from Lancashire. What didn't work was that I didn't do anywhere near enough to get established in East Anglia. And because I was still reliant on the referral business that was coming through and people ringing up that Lancashire phone number, I neglected to do what I really.
Ayo Abbas 15:50
In your new, your new local, geography, I guess your hand wasn't, your hand wasn't forced, because you were there, the phone was ringing, right?
Jon Clayton 15:57
My hand wasn't forced because the phone was ringing. And also, it suited me at the time because we were moving to an area where like, other than some extended family members, like I had no friends, I didn't know anybody, I had no business connections. So it was really hard. And I thought, well, actually, if I'm still got a foot in the door back home, then that gives me a reason to, once a month, take a little business trip, go and see my parents visit my friends go and do a couple of client meetings and property surveys, and then come back to East Anglia and do the work. And I did that for a heck of a long time, I probably did that. I went did a road trip to Lancashire, which is like a, nearly like a 500 mile road trip. I did that once. Yeah, like, and it's not the like, where we live in Norfolk, that it's not the easiest place to get to, there isn't a motorway nearby. So there's a lot of a roads on the journey. And for a while, it was great. And I really enjoyed it. But after a while, after a year or so I was like, You know what, I'm just getting really tired of this. Like, I don't want to be so reliant on the work from there. And what I then realized is I had neglected to do all the other things that I should have been doing or could have been doing things that didn't necessarily have to cost money, like going to networking events, meeting people in person building up relationships, going to the the, well making connections with industry connections, as well. So going to like the local, you know, Cambridge architects social that they have a
Jon Clayton 16:13
huge there's a huge architectural community around Cambridge,
Ayo Abbas 17:33
huge architectural community. Yeah, and CIAT, they have a really active East Anglia group for a CIAT as well. So there was all these other industry groups of peers that I could have connected with then, and also opportunities to go to the regular sort of business networking things in to get my name out there. And I didn't do it. And I think, partly it was because I was still reliant on their referral work from Lancashire. And also it was because it was out of my comfort zone, it was more of a believe it or not, like I'm more of an introvert. You know, I'm, like going to a big networking event, walking in a room full of people where I don't know anybody and having to go off and have those conversations. It wasn't something that came naturally to me. And I've, I've learned to get better at it over time. But back then, it was totally outside of my comfort zone. And that's another one of the reasons why I didn't do it. If I was going to do it again. I would recommend that that really, if you were going to relocate that those would be the things I've been leading into, you know, the relationship building and in person stuff.
Ayo Abbas 18:56
Hi, it's Ayo here. And I just wanted to interrupt the show quickly, to say a bit more about what I do. I'm a digitally lead marketing consultant and I specialise in working with built environment firms, just like yours. I think there's so much more that AEC firms can do to make the most of the digital marketing opportunity. And if it's something that you would like to explore working with me how to make the best of online and in person worlds, then do get in touch, email me at Ayo which is Ayo@abbasmarketing.com. And let's have a chat.
Ayo Abbas 19:32
What marketing advice would you give to a practice knowing what you've done with a I guess you've set up twice in a way Haven't you in two different locations? What advice would you give to a practice?
Jon Clayton 19:41
I would say that having a strategy is really important. Having a marketing strategy that is aligned with your business goals and the type of customers that you want to work with the number of new projects or clients that you need to Secure each year. And that's something that you can you can either work on it yourself or you can work with somebody else. Consultant like, like yourself or me or a another. You can you can go online this I mean information is so readily available now you could even go online and you know, if you don't have the budget, you could use YouTube, Google Chat GPT to help you with that, but have some kind of strategy don't, I wouldn't suggest that you just go you know what, like, everyone has a website, we have to have a website, everyone's on on Instagram, like we have to be on Instagram, like we have to be on this other platform. We are.
Ayo Abbas 20:42
Spread thinly, right. Yeah,
Jon Clayton 20:44
yeah, yeah, oh,like TikTok, we have to do TikTok, you end up spreading yourself so thinly, and you end up just if it's not something that's sustainable, it's better to be in less places and be there on a consistent basis, than to try and be everywhere all at once like, and particularly if you're a small business, if you're a startup, if you're a business of one, you don't have the time and resources, you don't have the time resources or money to do everything all at once. Like you've still got the work to do to deliver the results for your clients. And you've got to, you've got to obviously get those leads coming in. So what I would suggest is have a strategy that's aligned with your goals and pull together a marketing plan that is sustainable, so that it's something that is manageable for you, that's going to lead to the results that you're looking for. But it's something that you can actually consistently do. And then in future time, money resources allowing, you can expand that and you can ramp up your marketing efforts. So that could be for example, with social media, you might pick one main platform, and that is it like one platform.
Ayo Abbas 21:55
But one platform is enough, if you look like you hear about pair people to Instagram, for example. They're saying you're meant to have like a social media strategy for Instagram Stories, for reels for your profile for your DM, like, they literally like, like, treat them like four different channels. And that's just on Instagram. So for me, it's like, like you say, but it's like, on those one, that one platform, if you look at LinkedIn, the amount of different ways you can connect and share information and engage. It's massive, but you just do it very, very well. So you become really good at one platform, or one thing or one type of marketing.
Jon Clayton 22:27
Yeah, I think that with digital now we there's so many different options that we have, there's an infinite number of options that you can use to market your business. But you've only got so many hours in the day, and you've presumably only got a finite budget. And if you try and do too much of this stuff, you're very quickly going to fall off the wagon. So I would suggest having a strategy that, you know, I mean example might be to say that, okay, as a practice, we're going to commit to once a month, we create one long form piece of content that could be a blog article that goes on our website, could be a podcast episode, it could be a video, and then you could spend a month you could you could repurpose that. And it could be that you go we're going to do a fortnightly email newsletter, you can have a very
Ayo Abbas 23:20
simple what we did in the past few weeks, it could literally be as simple it's like like a diary.
Jon Clayton 23:24
Yeah, it's like what what we've been doing as a practice what we've got coming up, and if there's a new blog or resource or video that you've created that month, and you know, case studies as well, it could be that, you know, be realistic, you know how frequently you're going to be able to add them on your website and how much effort they're going to take to pull together. So you might just say, well, we're just going to commit to every quarter, we add a new case study, or we just build it up incrementally over time. And then that's another piece of content that you can share in your marketing. So I think that you can be you can be very strategic about it. What we don't want to do is be in a position where you are each day thinking like I need to post something on Instagram, I don't know what to post. You waste a lot of time and then you end up like being a consumer of content rather than a creator. Because when you go on the platform and you haven't planned what you're already posting, or you haven't sheduled it before you could end up just losing time like scrolling and terrible.
Ayo Abbas 24:34
So I'm just looking and I you got a new your website's relatively new, isn't it? Which I did really like your John Clayton website. So you've had support what's your third website then?
Jon Clayton 24:45
Oh, I've got a couple
Ayo Abbas 24:48
like, yeah, you've already spoken about two. There's Complete Plans.
Jon Clayton 24:52
There was Complete Plans, then there was Complete Architecture. Then there was like the hasty re rehash of that Complete Architecture website to make it John Clayton, then were so there was the second version of that freight side framework. Then there was the totally brand new John Clayton site, which is there now, which is the one that's still up and live, which is about two years old. And then I've also got Architecture Business Club.com, which is the newest website, which launched around early this year. So it would have been maybe around February time. So yeah,
Ayo Abbas 25:31
basically, more or less, yeah, probably
Jon Clayton 25:36
five or six, I lose count.
Ayo Abbas 25:39
But they can often like, Do you know what, it's funny when I'm in a room with other marketers, and we're often they're going, Ah, you know, I'm really bored of my brand now. Designers, they're like, don't do it, don't change it. Because it's like, I got the tools to change it, I can easily change it myself. And it's just like a busman's holiday isn't easy. You've had five websites, which is quite interesting. Any tips on doing a website and how to it, I guess, get it right from point one?
Jon Clayton 26:17
Okay. Let me think what would be the best tips. So I would say, keep front of mind that your website is for your clients, it's not for your peers. So a common thing that I see on architecture websites is it's designed for other architects. And that, you know, they're not always very user friendly, there's always a huge emphasis on portfolio. So it's always about showing the finished spaces and the finished buildings. And hey, we're Gray, look how amazing we are, look at our designs. And there's less about actually providing potential customers with the information they need to decide if this is the right person to contact about their project. And some of that information that's not just showing shiny pictures of like the shiny new building that you've designed. It's also it can be written content, it can be content that's explaining about your process, about how you work about what your beliefs are, as a practice, like, we like showing the team like showing your face like people buy from people, often you don't even see the face of the business owner on that, let alone the extended team. So it's about making a website that's fit for purpose for your customers, your ideal clients, not your peers. And that's going to be how you present that is going to be different. If your clients are typically home renovators, you're going to have a very different style of sight and language that you should be using for them to understand what you're talking about without the architect speak. If you're working with developers, or you're working with larger sort of corporate clients, commercial clients, then the language the way that you set the site up is going to be different again. So it's understanding your clients and designing the website with them in mind. Yeah, I would also say clarity, clarity is over quantity. So it's better to have a small, clear website that has just one or two pages than to try and have a big, you know, website, massive website that's difficult to navigate this overblown that, you know, I remember, the lesson I learned from the very first website was that actually, what I tried to do in the beginning, it was too complex there was going to be there's too many pages, it took far too long to launch. And really what it needed was just the basic structure that could be built upon. So now if you have something like, say, a WordPress website, it's very easy to just add to it over time, you could start off with something really simple, homepage, clear call to action, and about page, a quick overview of your services and process. And you know, and that's really to get started, that's all you need. Like then the case studies or the blog articles, those can all come with time and be added incrementally. And that can be part of your marketing plan moving forward. I
Ayo Abbas 29:28
I always find it interesting on that, because I kind of say to some people sometimes when like, don't spend a ton of money for your first year on your website and stuff. Because until you've actually launched your business, it's like, you don't know what people are going to buy from you. You know what I mean? And you do find, don't you like once you start doing it, like, ah, people aren't paying me for that, but they'll pay me for that. It's just like, you need something that you can kind of you know, I started my first website it was I had the color but it was the color purple and I built myself up on Squarespace, you know, and then it's evolved from there. Then like a year, and then I got my branding done and all that kind of stuff. But I then had a new website built. But I've always just think it's just one of those things where, until you're actually saying, and you find out what what your clients actually really want, it always takes, it takes time out there and launched, and then it's like, Oh, I know, I'm gonna adapt this, don't be too wedded to it. I think that's yeah, and what
Jon Clayton 30:21
if you, you know, like you say, if you want to change up your services, and pivot things, if you've spent X number of hundreds or 1000s of pounds on a really fancy sales page for a product that isn't shifting in the quantity you're hoping it is, you know, then it's just that what was the point is this kind of wasted money, you'd be better off just, excuse me, having a basic website, and then even you'd like your your sales copy. And your materials for a given package could be quite rough and ready. It could be as simple as, you know, a Google doc to, you know, a slide deck. And then it then, you know, with testing, and as sales progressed with that, you could then go you know what, this is a hot seller, let's let's have a proper sales page on the website for it, let's actually put some money behind the content, I think the other thing I would that I would just add around the website is if someone's thinking of getting a website done, I would say that you need to be realistic about how much time you're going to need as a client. So even if you're not going to build it yourself, even if you're going to set aside a budget, and you're going to go to a developer or an agency to get them to build your site. Don't underestimate the amount of time that you personally as a business are still going to have to put into it. Because you know, unless then you're also employing a graphic designer, a content writer, and all of that. And even if you employ all of those peoples they have tell
Ayo Abbas 31:50
them, tell them what to do. They can't just go off and do it without you. Oh, yes, hands off. No, it's not. It's your business. No,
Speaker 1 31:57
it's It's a collaborative project, and it will take time to do it. So regarding the most recent experience of building a website, which is worth sharing. Earlier this year, I launched a website for Architecture Business Club. And I'd like the previous websites, I'd used a developer. And I was happy with the results. But it did take a lot of time. And there was a lot of planning that had to be done in advance by me to make sure they had all of the assets, all of the copy or the images, everything they needed. And this time, I thought I just need a need something quick. And I don't I didn't have a huge budget available either. And I thought what is the quickest and easiest way that I can have a reasonably decent looking website that's good enough, that allows me the opportunity to expand upon it later. And I ended up going to my, my previous web developer had a separate company called pixel fresh websites that sells website Wordpress templates. But also supported by a full set of instructions, basically, like the the course was included, the kind of how to build the website course was included with the templates. And I literally just like right, you know, we have it wasn't a lot of money, it was like 200 - 300 pounds. I was like, right, I'm going to buy that. And within the next two weeks, I'm going to launch the website, the previous website took six months from idea to launch, took six whole months, the Architecture Business Club website from deciding to launch deciding I needed one to launching it two weeks.
Jon Clayton 33:41
But that's the difference, isn't it? And I think in some ways to just say I'm just going to do it within a short period of time. In some ways, that's the best way you know, like you put constraints on yourself. And all of a sudden you're like, right, it's done. You just give it a go. Like the templates you get on like WordPress or SquareSpace and stuff. They are really good. And like the Squarespace interface has changed so much in the past year that so much easier. And like to really like a decent product and amend it yourself. I mean, I use a web developer now and then but then like, it's literally just to build a couple of pages. And then from then on, I look up after my website, I just do.
Jon Clayton 34:17
Absolutely I do the same,
Ayo Abbas 34:19
just you don't need to waste money on that. It's just it's yeah, it's a no brainer. Thank you for that it was really useful. I like talking websites, it's always a good one. Um, so one thing actually on your you do a kind of you do more, you take more of a kind of productised approach to what you sell and know what you don't need. So you've got like packages, which is a lot more how people sell. I guess like you get a lot of coaches and stuff and stuff like that, but you're actually selling design architecture, design services in that way, which I thought was really interesting, because not many architects do that do that.
Jon Clayton 34:54
Yeah, I think that was that came about because because Monday's She was home owners doing home renovation projects, I felt that the traditional way that architectural services was sold. And how it was presented wasn't a best fit for homeowners. They didn't understand the jargon, they didn't understand the Riba work stage. You know, it's like strategic, definition and concept design. And it's like, I did needed, wanted to come up with a way of communicating things in a way that they would understand. So using their language and their terms. And also I'd because I'd recognize that had a huge knowledge gap around business and marketing, since we relocated to Norfolk. So about eight years ago, I started going to training courses, workshops, events, conferences, all about business and marketing, because I realized, like, I don't have enough customers, and I need to do something about it. Like, what can I do? So I started going to these events, and I, a lot of those events, there were many coaches and consultants. And I got to see how they presented their their packaging, how they packaged up services in a different way. So I guess I
Ayo Abbas 36:11
interesting, isn't it when you compare it to our industry? Because it's, it's very different. And I go to the same things as you and you're like, ah, we don't do that here. It's It's fascinating to see, I know, because we met each other in person, actually, at Atomicon, which is a sales and marketing conference. I mean, even just walking into those conferences, it's so different than a industry conference, because everyone's on social media. Everyone's taking pictures, you know what I mean? And that was like, This is not a construction industry event.
Jon Clayton 36:42
Yeah, they're definitely more kind of social media savvy. Savvy. Yeah, yeah.
Ayo Abbas 36:45
I'm like, oh, no, this is not UK construction week, because everyone's there like going to do all this kind of stuff. Say, No, that's really interesting. I think the product product ties thing is, there's a few practices I've seen now who are starting to do that the online packages, and things like that, which is kind of how people are getting used to buying and I think like you say, we the rebirth state of works doesn't really work for human beings, does it? It doesn't make any sense. Unless you're an architect. Yeah,
Jon Clayton 37:11
there's a few big players that specialize in the residential market companies like Resi, Hoko design as well, which pitch themselves as they their homeowners, architects, and they have a very different way of communicating with their clients. They use a lot of cutting edge technology. And they talk using their language. So yeah,
Ayo Abbas 37:33
yeah. So they are definitely and they're growing fast. They are in really fast. So it's quite interesting about how those new players will actually have an impact on the traditional architecture sector, because I think I think they will do like this. No way they can't. Yeah, that's a fascinating area. So just to finish off to and talk about a bit about your podcast a bit was the Architecture Business Club. So what is it? Who do you interview? Who's your next guest?
Jon Clayton 37:59
Well, funnily enough, Ayo. I do believe you're making an appearance. Actually, this very same day that this episode is being released? That was sort of deeply segwayed into that. Yeah, so the Architecture Business Club podcast. It's, it's mainly an interview based show. So I have amazing guests like yourself, that come on, and I chat with them every week about business marketing, sales. We've covered everything from personal branding, packaging up your services, social media, all sorts of different things. Basically, all the stuff that we the stuff that we don't get taught when we go to architecture school, or when you go to college to study architecture, architecture and technologies, it's all the other stuff that when you start a business in architecture, you go, Oh, my goodness, there's all this other stuff I now need to know about. And I don't know where to start. And I'm now totally overwhelmed. So we have a weekly podcast, it's usually 30 minutes or so interview. And then once a month, I do a solo episode, where I share some of my own experiences. And, you know, I definitely am not positioning myself as any kind of Guru. It's warts and all. So it's very much like, this is what I did. These are all the mistakes that I made. This is what I learned from it. So it's kind of that approach. And also I do consulting, and coaching for small firm architects. So if you're a sole practitioner or a micro size practice owner, and you need some more hands on support, I offer that. And also we have a we have a whatsapp discussion group at the moment. I am looking to launch a paid community in the coming months. I don't have a date, exactly when it's going to be launched
Ayo Abbas 39:48
in like two weeks at some point, maybe like that's the deadline.
Jon Clayton 39:50
Yeah, well. The plan is that we're going to do a beta run where we're going to just do kind of rough and ready Minimum Viable version of it and then get some feedback from the participants in that for, say, a three month beta testing period. And then following that, then there would be a more proper launch for a community for architecture business owners. So that's kind of kind of what I've got going on.
Ayo Abbas 40:15
Yeah. Awesome. So where can people find your where's the best place to connect?
Jon Clayton 40:19
Okay, so the best place to connect is on LinkedIn. So perhaps if we could maybe put a link to my profile in the show notes, that would be awesome. And also, the Architecture, Business Club websites if you go to architecturebusinessclub.com. So that's going to be the best place for any architects or any people that are working within the built environment, listening to the show, that's going to be the best websites direct people to
Jon Clayton 40:48
Awesome, thank you. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for listening to the built environment marketing show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on abbasmarketing.com. And of course, if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
