Is marketing a "dirty" word in architecture?
The Built Environment Marketing Show hosted by Ayo Abbas, strategic marketing consultant from Abbas Marketing.
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In this episode, Ayo talks to Rachael Bernstone, founder of Sounds Like Design and former architecture journalist of nearly 25 years, about why marketing has such a bad reputation inside architecture practices — and what changes when firms stop avoiding it.
Topics covered:
Why marketing feels like a "dirty word" to architects, and where that resistance comes from
The link between university crit culture and adult reluctance to self-promote
Why referrals remain the most important (and most under-used) channel
The shift from "client as patron" to "client as customer"
Why most architecture websites fail to speak to actual clients
Gateway/entry-level services and why partial offers are winning trust faster than full-service models
How framing a project distinctively builds authority that compounds across media and AI search
Lead magnets as a thought-leadership and list-building tool
Why only 59% of architects say strategy, not time or money, is their real blocker
Resources
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is hosted by Ayo Abbas. It is a show that is unashamedly about marketing for architects and engineers, as well as bringing forward voices that we don't always get to hear.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Ayo, hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Built Environment Marketing Show, hosted by me, Ayo Abbas. If you want to find out more about me and my work, head to www dot abbas marketing.com and you can see all that I do in terms of strategic marketing, speaking, and training for built environment firms. Today's episode is an interesting one. It came about last minute, which is some of the best stuff that I do. I guess I had an email dropped into my inbox from Rachael Bernstone, who is based in Perth, in Western Australia. She's another architecture marketer and communicator, just like me, and I love her stuff. Anyway, she had actually drafted an amazing email, which I'll put a link to in the show notes, all about is marketing a dirty word in your architecture firm, and it's one of those kind of emails that made my ears prick up. And she wrote a really thoughtful, deep, insightful, incisive piece about her views on this, where this came from, and I guess what kind of architects are missing by not taking marketing seriously. So, anyway, so when I had that email land, I thought I'm gonna drop her a line and see if she'd like to come onto the show, which is what this interview is. I hope you enjoy it. Take care. Bye. Hi, Rachael. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Can you introduce yourself and what you do at Sounds Like Design?
Rachael Bernstone 01:27
Yeah, sure. Thank you for inviting me. It's great to be here. So, I'm Rachael Bernstone. I'm the founder of a comms consultancy for architects called Sounds Like Design, and I have been an architecture journalist for close to 25 years, so I came into the role that I'm doing now via media and publishing. I also have a master's in architecture, history, and theory, although I don't have an architecture undergraduate degree. I've got a journalism undergraduate degree, so I'm a bit of a rare beast.
Ayo Abbas 02:01
I've got none of that. I've got a business degree, that's it. That's who I am. You know what I mean. I'm like, I'm not an architect. I'm always like, I'm not an architect. I can't do it.
Rachael Bernstone 02:08
Yeah, so I don't think of myself as an architect, but I certainly can speak the language of architects, and especially because I've been writing stories about them for such a long time, I've absorbed a lot of knowledge and information, you know, by osmosis, which has been really helpful in terms of me framing ideas about now how to help architects with their business development and marketing. So I set up my business 10 years ago to do that, to do consulting, and I've been working with clients directly, and then in 2020 before Covid hit, I'd already decided to create an online course, and the timing of the pandemic and everyone going online actually worked in favor of doing more delivery online, and so I've been helping architects with compulsory professional development training since 2020 and I have a range of courses and workshops that I offer.
Ayo Abbas 03:11
Awesome. Do you just offer the UK or mainly in Australia?
Rachael Bernstone 03:15
So, my CPD, the compulsory professional development, that's only for Australian architects, but the principles and the ideas and the strategies are global. So, yeah, an architect in the UK probably would get a lot of benefit out of my materials, but they wouldn't earn the CE or the CPD points.
Ayo Abbas 03:39
Awesome, awesome. So, anyway, so the reason that I invited you onto the show was basically because an email landed in my inbox, which was literally yesterday, and it had a great subject title, and I read it, I was like, you've got to come on. So this is where we are now, which, you know, within like 24 hours, that's pretty quick even for me. So what was the title of your email? First of all, I asked you to explain.
Rachael Bernstone 04:01
Yeah, the title was, is marketing a dirty word in your architecture practice?
Ayo Abbas 04:06
Is
Rachael Bernstone 04:07
it in my experience? Mostly, yes, it is. Most architects that I speak with are very reluctant to engage in marketing in a proactive way, and that means that they don't devote a lot of time or energy or effort or money to marketing.
Ayo Abbas 04:27
Why do you think
Rachael Bernstone 04:29
that is? There's a long list of reasons they
Ayo Abbas 04:32
hate us.
Rachael Bernstone 04:34
Yeah, I don't think they hate us personally. They hate the idea, and it's instilled very early in their university education, and there's a couple of reasons for that. One is there aren't usually clients in university studios or other types of university study, so architects are talking among themselves with their teachers and sometimes visiting critics or jurors, and they're not necessarily having to create messaging or information for a non-specialist audience, so there's an insider language issue going on, and another thing I think that stems from that early university experience is that when architects stand up to present their work to the class and to the visiting critical juror, in many cases, and definitely in the past, and hopefully not so much anymore, they were prepared to have shreds torn off them to be critiqued in a way that felt very personal and uncomfortable in some cases, and often this was happening after they'd been up all night, so they hadn't had a lot of sleep, and they'd been working on their scheme, you know, right up until the time they were presenting, so they weren't in the best frame of mind to begin with, and then the way the critique was delivered is really soul-destroying in a lot of cases.
Ayo Abbas 06:04
I've heard people talk about the process, and you're just like, how can that be part of the education process, especially education process, which should really be building young people up. Yeah,
Rachael Bernstone 06:14
absolutely.
Ayo Abbas 06:15
I mean, I'm not saying not like hyping them up to a level that is not realistic, but I do think there is a way to deliver things, and yeah, some of the crit processes I've heard described. I think that's you hear them quite talked about on TikTok and stuff, and I'm like, I, that, that does not sound like something I know you're paying for it, right? You're paying for the experience to be flawed. Absolutely, yes,
Rachael Bernstone 06:34
yeah, and I think that that has a lasting effect for people, whether they experienced a crit like that themselves or just witnessed a peer go through that treatment, I think it has a lasting effect on their psyche, and another issue that comes out of that experience is that they're visibly asked to defend the work, and so that's a combative type of communication dynamic, and so when we, as marketers or storytellers, come into practices, you know, 10,15, 20 years later, and say, let's unpack the story and get it out to a wider audience, whether they are aware of this or not, there's a part of them that shrinks and contracts because of those early experiences that were uncomfortable, or even worse, in some cases traumatic. So, I think that a lot of the antipathy towards marketing and us as marketers comes from those early experiences, and sometimes I'm not even sure that architects are aware of those links.
Ayo Abbas 07:39
I guess it's having to defend your, they're having to defend their craft, right, in a very public setting, and be open to scrutiny, which is, which is, I can imagine that's a lot. And then also, I'm coming to you and saying, story behind this project, and why have you done it? You're like, so you want me to put that out there, so I could be critiqued again, exactly. Yeah, and you, and I guess a lot of marketing, especially the free stuff, you can't control the message, right? Yes, you're putting things out into the world, and then people can react and letting it go. Yeah, that's hard. I'm not very good at learning, go let it go, but like, but there is that whole thing, though, isn't there? Where you go, actually, I can imagine that is it's quite exposing. Yes,
Rachael Bernstone 08:17
it is. It is, and it takes practice. If you've had a negative experience, it takes practice to get into a frame of mind where that becomes something that you look forward to, and that becomes positive, and you need some positive flow on consequences from that in order for you to have a different point of view around whether or not that's worthwhile,
Ayo Abbas 08:40
and how far do you think this kind of resistance to marketing or the concept of marketing actually goes into into practices? Do you think it's most practices or do you think it's like the vast majority? Or yeah, I think
Rachael Bernstone 08:52
I think it's a lot. So I decided to become a consultant and to offer services to architects, because as a journalist I had seen firsthand when I went into a practice to ask questions to write a story for a magazine article, how much resistance there was around sharing and how little skill there was in being able to frame a story for me as the journalist, and to understand what the key important lessons or takeaways or things that they wanted to present, you know, in what is usually a distillation of something that might have taken two, 310, years in some cases to gestate and and be realised, so I could see as a journalist asking questions that there was a lack of skill in that communication side of things, and I wanted to provide some upskilling around that, because stories are a very useful way to get a point across.
Ayo Abbas 09:55
Yeah, it's a skill for life, right? It flies across whatever you do as well. I think it's absolutely, and in your email, what do you.. I guess, what do you think? What do you think marketing is, and what do you think architects think marketing
Rachael Bernstone 10:10
is? So, I think architects think marketing is the devil, and to me it's much more simple than that. It's very straightforward. They just need to make it easy for their future clients, whoever they are, to find them, contact them, trust them, engage them, and then refer them, because we know from the Institute's Client Insights Report that 71% of clients want a referral from a trusted source when they're looking for an architect, and so referrals and word of mouth are still king when it comes to finding the right types of clients to bring in the right types of projects.
Ayo Abbas 10:52
That's amazing. I mean, do you think? I guess for me, I don't think people look at it in that holistic way, and what I find interesting is it's trying to tell the stories behind photographs. It's trying to tell you, know, actually, how you made all of those decisions, because, because I always think a completed project is like a lost opportunity. Does that make sense? Because I always look at it, just think, if you've not shared how you got there, then that is an opportunity that you've lost, because people don't realize, like, oh, it's just a white wall, right? It's like, no, it's not just a white wall. Do you know all the stuff? Do you know how many colors of white there are? You know, it could be stuff like that. And I think that's where people don't realise it's like those stories are what people are paying you for. Do you want to explain more about what's in the email, so in terms of some of the kind of concepts you think and why, but also, what people can do to, I guess, get more on board with marketing.
Rachael Bernstone 11:46
I think a lot of architects are operating out of survival mode, particularly at the moment when the Middle East war has had a pretty detrimental impact on confidence and the economy and construction, and a client's willingness to proceed with a project. You know, it was a bit of a jittery moment. We seem to be coming off the back of that in Australia. I'm not sure how that is in the UK at the moment, but things have been difficult for about 12 months, and that made them worse again. So architect architects have noticed drops in revenues. We're seeing that from research that's coming out of the profession here in Australia, and that has shown that there is a two speed architecture economy happening. Some architects are doing very well, and some have had to put off staff, and they don't have enough work, and to me the difference between those two types of practices is that the ones who were doing well had marketing and business development strategies in place before this latest hiccup, and they were able to ride it out more easily, so I think that these economic situations have created a perception within the architecture profession that there are systemic issues that they don't have any control over in the UK, for example, there's this ongoing conversation around protection of title and protection of function, and we have a similar conversation playing out in Australia in different forms, and that's that's forcing architects to try to prove their legitimacy, so when you're fighting for survival with government regulators in that way, it's very hard to think about how you're going to market your firm and win your next job, because you're basically just trying to keep the lights on. Architects get stuck in this cycle of thinking, oh, all of these systemic issues are working against me, and you know, I've got all these threats coming at me from different directions, AI, climate emergency
Ayo Abbas 14:03
insurance costs,
Rachael Bernstone 14:05
exactly all of those things, and it's very easy to get caught up in that vortex and feel like there's nothing you can do, you're absolutely trapped and there's no way out. What I would say to architects, and what I said in the email, is that you actually have agency, because those systemic issues - everybody's operating under the same constraints, if you like, but within those constraints, you've got a lot of agency in terms of how you choose to respond, and whether you choose to be passive and wait for clients to come and find you, or whether you choose to be proactive and create messaging to attract the clients that you actually want to work with. Those are two very different approaches, and and they fall within the remit of individual choices that you'll make. Working in your business or in your practice, and so there are systemic issues, and you can do advocacy around those, and you can try and shake things up, and you can lobby the government for certain outcomes, knowing that those things are going to happen at a glacial pace, and you can make changes within your own business and practice to set yourself up to thrive, even though all of those systemic issues are pretty confounding.
Ayo Abbas 15:32
I think you're absolutely right. I think there is this thing of, I think people, I often talk to some of my marketing mates, and we're always going, people are like, oh, we don't do politics here, we don't need to, and you're like, going, I don't think you can be in business to ignore politics, right? And I think politics is part of everyone's business and our world, and we're all dealing with uncertainty, and I think we have to kind of throw that into our mix of that kind of external forces we can't ignore, but you're right. Is that what can we do to shape it in a way that will work for our business? Is one part. I know when I've worked in house, we used to do a lot of even like 10,12, years ago, as to work with companies, and like they realised that they needed to start doing public affairs and talking to government and shaping the packages of work that are coming through those big packages and contributing to those consultations, because it meant that you were shaping that future work, that and also that you were raising your profile and visibility of being a trusted advisor at that level, so that kind of, you then you do a sandwich effect where you'd work from the bottom level, but you'd also work from the top level, and I think that kind of stuff is small practices can contribute and have something to say and position themselves and and look where the opportunities are coming, because a lot of these big public sector programs, they have to be open and transparent, all the information is there, you can read it, you can read how much housing they want to build in a borough in an or area in the next 10,15 years, and what the vision is, and understand what they're trying to do, and tap into that in what you do in your marketing, and I think it's just a case of people don't realize that there is actually a lot out there that you can kind of look at, understand, and do your kind of optioneering scenario planning of where you want to take your business, so on that strategic level, but also from a marketing level, then you go, what activities will help us to win that work in the future or now or whatever, and I think people that agency, I don't think people realize, and I think we've probably gone from a state where a lot of firms were used to work just walking through the door, they should just be in the press, we should just come out, I'd be just be listed in the back, and you know that's what architects would do, they would look for other engineers and then they just find us, that doesn't happen anymore, there's a lot more competition, things
Rachael Bernstone 17:40
have really changed, really
Ayo Abbas 17:42
changed, become, and also I think marketing is moving faster than ever, and I think,
Rachael Bernstone 17:48
yes, people, I agree,
Ayo Abbas 17:49
and especially with the age of AI, people are catching people up pretty quickly, so it's like, how are you going to keep iterating and keeping their head, and I think people don't realise that as well, it's like I might have worked two years ago, but now got to try something else, and I think that can also be quite scary as well, but
Rachael Bernstone 18:04
it can. It's really destabilising, having to constantly reinvent and experiment and try something new, because the thing that worked two years ago is no longer working.
Ayo Abbas 18:13
But that's the world,
Rachael Bernstone 18:14
absolutely, and that's destabilizing.
Ayo Abbas 18:17
Yeah, it's just like you kind of say it's just marketing, it's like, no, that is the world, like if you sat with a crystal ball and said, "Oh, we can tell this may war in the Middle East, you'd be like, "What?
Rachael Bernstone 18:27
Yeah, totally, that came out of nowhere, didn't it?
Ayo Abbas 18:29
Literally out of one man's mind. So, yeah, but I do think it is that thing now, but we are in a constant.. I always think now we're always in a time of uncertainty and flux, and that is what we're all having to deal with, but that is kind of the norm now.
Rachael Bernstone 18:42
Yes,
Ayo Abbas 18:43
you know, yeah. So it is. No. So, in terms of agency, what kind of things do you think the firms who are succeeding, what are they doing?
Rachael Bernstone 18:52
I had an interesting conversation with someone who won an award last year, and a significant award for a project, and that was something that they'd looked forward to, hopefully winning one day, and they were disappointed that there wasn't any marketing or exposure off the back of that, that they didn't get articles in the newspaper or magazines, or any calls from clients asking them about it, and that was interesting to me, because I've got a client who won an award last week, similar award, similar significant award, and we had put together a package of materials that would go out on the Monday morning after winning the award on the Friday to absolutely make hay around the fact that they'd won this award.
Ayo Abbas 19:45
It's a hook,
Rachael Bernstone 19:46
so that yeah, absolutely, it's a, it's a way to open a conversation and to hopefully get some media coverage off the back of it, and I think that architects fall into the trap of thinking. That winning award is the be all and end all, and then the work will come flooding through the door, like you were saying, and that might have been the case years ago. I think it's questionable whether it really did happen or not, but it might have happened more than it does now, and now you have to use the award as the stepping stone to make your own opportunities from that, so that
Ayo Abbas 20:22
is a way to start conversations.
Rachael Bernstone 20:24
Yes, yep, so that that's an interesting difference. Another thing that I would say, a client that I've worked with, we defined a term to describe a project that they had done some R & D and were very innovative on, so we coined a term that it was a true net zero home, and I did some research, and we discovered that it was the third true net zero home, and by true net zero we mean net zero in both operational and embodied energy, and so we found two previous examples of houses that met that definition, and so we said that this was the third in Australia, and the first here, where I am in Western Australia, in the state, and so it's really interesting to see that a lot of the coverage of that project, which is very innovative and at the frontier, has mentioned very early on in the media coverage that it's the third true net zero project in the country, because that's a significant benchmark, and so we created a frame, if you like, to be able to present this project, and we made that a key plank of the way we talked about it, and then nearly every article repeats that, and so that's how you build authority and thought leadership is by creating a story or framing a story about a project that differentiates you from what everyone else is doing, and you can do that with any project, because every project has its own unique qualities and attributes that are of interest to your future clients, so it's a matter of being able to identify a couple of those important qualities, and then making them the hook, like you said, and building the story and the narrative around that particular element, rather than how architects traditionally told stories, which was around esthetics and how things look and function,
Ayo Abbas 22:42
and that's a big shift, isn't it? And I think you're absolutely right, and what I love about that true net zero thing is, is that it's third bar, third party endorsement, so like you'll be having, you'll have articles appearing, which aren't just you saying it, but you've got other magazines, yes, and publications, and actually that, that's where, like, you know, AI is citing from, it'll be from those publications. Yes, so actually they'll be coming up for that term in searches. If anyone puts that into, like, ChatGPT or whatever, they'll be the first people who talked about, and I think it's that kind of looking at it in that kind of integrated way, or integrated communications way, of like, actually, if we do this properly, this can feed into other channels and how we work. And then you could do articles on your website, so you kind of look at it in that way, and you go, actually, those are things that we can stand out from the competition, and I think those little niches are where you're going to win.
Rachael Bernstone 23:29
Yeah, another thing that that client did was we created a lead magnet, so you know what a lead magnet is, I'm sure, but perhaps some of our listeners don't, so that's a piece of valuable information that you put on your website, and you invite people to download it in exchange for giving their web their email address, and so we created a lead magnet where he defined the five key criteria that he'd used in the R&D on that project, and he wanted to share that information with clients and with other architects. He wanted to make that freely available for other people to take those lessons, and so when he's done podcasts, he talks about this lead magnet that people can come and download from his website, and that also endorses him as a thought leader, because he's now authoring this important information, which is helping others and making that available to people, and that is a form of marketing.
Ayo Abbas 24:32
Oh, completely, and building his own mailing list, because you're getting people's details, which means you can then market to them, and I think it's that kind of whole, like the whole wheel, it's the whole circle of, like, actually this is all the things we can do to guys drive business, and that's basically what he's doing, but just for a different way, that's really important. I don't think, I think for me, the thing about marketing now is that it's so interconnected, and I don't think people realize that it's like you can't just get in the media and that's it. It's like, no, how's it gonna work on our website? How will it work in our social media? How will it work in emails, and I think there is a lot to do, but actually, if you start to look at it in that way, then you get, make a lot more impact.
Rachael Bernstone 25:10
Yes.
Ayo Abbas 25:14
Hi, it's Ayo here. Most firms only call in outside help when things go wrong, and I think they're missing a trick because they're already behind the firms I see making real progress and consistent progress when it comes to marketing. They've got strategic thinking in their corner all year round, and not just when times are bad. Anyway, that's why I've built a strategic advisory offer, so you can have me in your corner, and there are two ways to work with me, so a quarterly advisory service, marketing advisory service, where you would have 4x90 minute sessions with me across the year. So you bring your challenges, I bring my brain of 25 years of working in this sector, and you leave with a clear kind of one page action plan on what you should be doing next. And also, if you've already got a plan, it could be a good way of getting clarity on what you need to do to move forward in the next quarter, as well, there's also a more ongoing service, if you want me in your corner, you know, every couple of months, or every month, which is a strategic advisory service. Both of them give you access to my rather large mind, and they're also a way for your firm to stay ahead and be ahead of the curve, so that you kind of are always thinking of the bigger picture, and not just doing, I guess, marketing, that's just implementation. So, yeah, there's a link in the comments if you want to find out more about my strategic advisory services. When it comes to architecture firms and them taking marketing seriously, what makes them do that, or is there normally a crunch point where people go, Rachel, you've got to help us, or
Rachael Bernstone 26:45
there are a lot of reasons that people might come to me, they don't, there's not one specific thing that stands out, so in some cases I'm hearing people say now I've noticed that things that used to work aren't working, so I need some help to understand what to do next. In some cases, people are wanting to update their website, and they're not quite sure what the important things they should focus on around a website upgrade, are so they're coming to me to ask for help with that. Sometimes it's I won an award, and or I got my thing published, and it didn't have the beneficial effect that I was hoping for. So, what am I missing? Like, what do I not understand about marketing, because I thought that was going to be the thing that would have people, you know, ringing me and the phone going off the whole,
Ayo Abbas 27:46
still amazes me that people still think that, anyway, but go,
Rachael Bernstone 27:50
yeah, well, I think that because architects are so they don't have a good grounding in marketing, and actually, there's a really, there's a very simple and straightforward reason for that. So, in Australia, architects are taught according to the national standard of competency for architects, which is the curriculum, essentially. And that document was last updated across a period from about 2020 to 2022 and in December 2020 there was a draft put out for public consultation, and they had a new professional competency, which was PC 13, and it was around including business development and marketing as part of the curriculum, and I was jumping up and down and waving my hands and writing about it on my blog, and you know, screaming, it's coming, don't worry, the savior is on the way, and then it didn't get through to the final version, so it fell out in the review process, and there's several reasons for that that I can under, that I've been able to unearth. One is that they had to update a couple of other major topics in the 2022 version, and it was seen to be too much change, so it didn't make it through for that reason. But another very important reason, and it's relevant for the UK, is that we in Australia have mutual recognition of qualifications with seven countries, including the UK, the US, Japan, Canada, New Zealand, Singapore, and so if we make a change to our curriculum, there needs to be a corresponding line item in every other of those mutual recognition countries, and that's why we're in this situation where architects all around the world are lacking these pretty significant skills around business development and marketing, because they've never been in the curriculum, and it's very hard to introduce them as a new topic because of that mutual. Recognition framework that exists.
Ayo Abbas 30:03
Gosh, that's a big thing that needs to change, isn't it? Especially, as
Rachael Bernstone 30:07
yeah,
Ayo Abbas 30:07
it's a massive change, because you kind of sit there and think without it, the practices are not going to survive, and that kind of fundamental running a business stuff is probably some of the most important skills that a lot of practices don't have, yes, and I
Rachael Bernstone 30:23
agree,
Ayo Abbas 30:23
it's not even just marketing, it's all of those kind of so-called kind of softer, softer disciplines, but it's so fundamental,
Rachael Bernstone 30:32
absolutely, especially I think it's even more critical now, and this brings us to another important point that relates to the email that I sent, so architecture is going through a period of redefinition, and I think that we're making a significant shift from the former model, where the client was a patron, and architects, especially in the residential sector created homes for, you know, five to 6% of the population, people who were well off and could afford to commission a bespoke piece of architecture. Now we're moving into an era where architecture is more of an essential service, because of climate emergency, housing crisis, the drive towards diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging. All of those factors mean that it's become apparent that architecture is now for everybody. Access to good design, in my opinion, is an equity issue in the age of climate emergency, because we're all going to be impacted by changes to the climate, and we all need to have our homes retrofitted, so that we're more comfortable and resilient, and so that we reduce our impact on the planet. In Australia, that's 8 million homes that need to be retrofitted, and we are a long way behind the UK, which has at least some government policies around retrofitting.
Ayo Abbas 32:10
Yeah, we do, but we've got a huge challenge as well, and how we're going to do it. Yeah, but I guess it's social infrastructure, basically that's what we're designing now, right? Social infrastructure, and I think, yeah, it's a very different beast.
Rachael Bernstone 32:23
Yes, and so that means that rather than clients being patrons who've got, you know, who are well healed and able to engage in a process of almost creating a work of art that they can live in, architects are now thinking about how to serve a much wider proportion of the population, and that involves changing the way they position what architecture is, who it's for, and who should benefit, and so I call this transition the shift from client as patron to client as customer, it's entirely different beast,
Ayo Abbas 33:02
and in some ways, what kind of attitudes would we have to shift as an industry to do that?
Rachael Bernstone 33:07
Absolutely, yeah, because we're not any longer talking to people about esthetics and marble, and you know, multiple rooms, we're talking about doing more with less and rooms that perform double and triple functions and reducing our impact on the environment, you know, it's a, it's a different conversation. The budgets are different, and that means that the way that the services have to be framed and delivered and costed is also different, because the same amount of thinking and expertise goes into a small budget little renovation project as goes into a high end high budget home, and so you know we are going to be building less because of climate emergency and because of planetary limits, and so in an environment where architects' fees are pegged to the value of construction, everything is up for new discussion when we shift to the different model. It's
Ayo Abbas 34:18
an interesting time, isn't it? And you're right, I think it's interesting as well. I think the way people buy services now has completely changed as well, and I think even, like, because I was looking at some of your stuff, and you're on your website, and things, and I was like, actually, the way you sell your services are different, and there is a.. I want.. I'm going to probably do a mini series at some point on like different work, like different ways like architects can sell their services, because I think a lot of people think has to be the full end to end service. It's like, well, people don't really want that now, you know. I've now got architects who are going and going, are we just going and we do site appraisal and we'll tell you what's possible on that site, and we'll just come with you to that site and help you, Mr. Developer or Miss Developer, you know what I mean. And I think those kind of little small discreet things that really help someone get the most. Value from the acquisition and what they're doing, and you become their trusted advisor, so that when the work does come, you know, and I think there's a different way of selling that, and I think people aren't necessarily realizing that there are different ways to do things now, and I think, and that's that's a way of differentiating yourself again, you know what I mean, of like actually our services, you can procure what you need. We only give you this. You don't have to be a full end to end, but I do think that's another mindset and kind of shift, isn't it?
Rachael Bernstone 35:29
Yes, I had an interesting piece of feedback from a client recently. We did a positioning workshop together last year, and then he made some changes to his website, and one of those changes was to add a services page, and most architects do not have a services page on their website, and so he put up a services page, and he said he got a call from someone who he had never spoken with before, and they had, they were doing their due diligence and research to appoint an architect, and they liked what they saw on his website because he was the only architect that they'd looked at who offered feasibility and so they wanted someone to come and tell them what was possible, how much it might cost, and whether or not it would be approved by the local authority, and so the fact that he had that on his website was the reason that they picked up the phone and called him because every other architect that they were looking at didn't have that entry service, so I call those gateway services because they're the gateway to larger services, and I think this comes back to the conversation we were having earlier about the systemic issues in the individual issues, so there's all sorts of sort of prohibitions, if you like, on full versus partial services. So, insurance companies would prefer that architects delivered only full services, and there are codes of conduct that say that architects should be prioritizing full services over partial services, but as you said, the way that consumers want to engage with service providers is really changing. They want some, they want the ability to test the waters and to see if you're a good fit and if your ideas make sense before they're willing to commit to a full service project from the get go,
Ayo Abbas 37:19
but only that, they also want to scope out whether the project's got potential, so yes, I could look at a site and think, oh, I could do this, but actually, if I can get a specialist who can come onto site and actually tell me what is properly possible, what the council's likely to approve, all that kind of stuff, that's way more valuable, because then I'm
Rachael Bernstone 37:37
absolutely,
Ayo Abbas 37:38
at least I'm going into like scoping out a project, but with like the proper information and you know proper professional advice, so I'm not wasting time and money putting together a deal that would never actually get up, get off the ground, get out of the ground, and I think that's what's valuable is that actually providing those types of services, and they don't always have to be free, I know some people do this stuff for free, but you could, you could still get paid for it, and I think it's just finding those different ways of actually being supportive, and yeah, I just think that we all want to kind of buy in different ways, and I think you know, looking at, you know, there are some architects who do like online services now, and things like that, and we've got like Resi, who are based not too far from me in South West London, but you know, they kind of, they are not a lot of online services and things, and you think they've looked at the model of architecture, what doesn't work, and they built something else, and I think those things are useful, and you kind of think that's what that's really where the market is going, like it or not, you know, we've got more digital buyers, you know, the people who are procuring now, are you know, they're digital natives, and they're the ones who are going to have the money, and they're going to buy in a different way.
Rachael Bernstone 38:46
Yeah, absolutely.
Ayo Abbas 38:48
I guess. Final question, if you were in an architecture firm and you weren't sure how to get started in marketing, what would your advice be to them?
Rachael Bernstone 38:59
So, this is interesting. I have a quiz that architects have completed, and I logged into it the other day, and 200 architects have completed the quiz, so there's some really good data in there. And one of the final questions is, what do you need? Do you need more time, more strategy. Sorry, better strategy, more money, and there's a fourth option. I can't remember what it is, but the overwhelming response: 59% better strategy. Really, architects, really. Yes,
Ayo Abbas 39:37
I am so surprised.
Rachael Bernstone 39:39
Yeah, so architects under you were talking about the wheel before, and you know you've got publishing and awards, and you've got social media, and you've got maybe an email newsletter, although architects are not using those to a great degree, so architects are bamboozled by the number of things they. They could be doing, and they don't know what they should be doing, and so I go back to data. So I said at the beginning that the client insights report told us that 71% of clients want a referral from a trusted source. So have you collected feedback and reviews and testimonials from your past clients that you can use in your marketing messaging across all of your channels and in your fee proposals and your capability statements as a form of social proof that's a place that people could start and then on this question of strategy I actually created a marketing system for architects, because I wanted to be able to present them with a hierarchy of which channels are the most beneficial, so I've said, okay, there are six channels, and the most important channels are referrals, email, and your website, and so that means that social media and publishing and awards, which are the ones that most architects focus on, are of lesser importance in my hierarchy.
Ayo Abbas 41:08
I'm going to ask you questions on that, because I'm quite like, really, how did you get to that?
Rachael Bernstone 41:12
Well, in terms of the referral, elevating that to the number one, that came first anecdotally, because my clients were saying to me we get most of our work through word of mouth, and some cases it's 7080 90% so that's a sort of accepted wisdom within architecture practices that word of mouth is responsible for a lot of new projects, and this is obviously based on historical data prior to the arrival of social media, but in fact it still holds true, and so most architects, when you talk to them now, they say, "Oh, yeah, referral is still very important. So that's a very untapped channel that architects are not making the most of, and that their clients are voting with their feet by wanting to have that one to one direct recommendation from somebody who's actually used the practice before, because you know buying architecture or procuring architecture totally different order of magnitude to buying a handbag or a pair of shoes, very low risk buying a pair of shoes. They don't fit, they were 100 pounds. You put them in the bin, you haven't lost much. You go down the wrong path within a bad fit architect, you know it's 1000s and 1000s of pounds and a lot of heartache and time, which is valuable. So having a recommendation from someone who's had a good experience still carries a lot of weight.
Ayo Abbas 42:44
Yeah, I mean, I do. I mean, I, I guess I, I slightly differ on that. I think the referrals is one thing, but I also do think you're supporting kind of digital infrastructure now has to be good, because, especially because I think people are doing the research more, I do think digital people, digital natives, who don't talk to people. I am one of them, and will read. I will happily research for days for anything I'm buying, right? And that includes design, you know what I mean. So I kind of do my own, so I do think it's both now, because I think there's a lot of people who are like, "Oh no, it's just word of mouth and referral, and I'm like, "You don't think they're checking you out online, right? Okay, let's have.
Rachael Bernstone 43:21
I want the referral on the digital channels, I want it on your Instagram feed, I want it on your LinkedIn, I want it on your website. I want you to put those recommendations and reviews absolutely everywhere. I've got the five channels: referrals, email, social media, publishing, and awards, and they all are designed to lead people to your website, so your website is the mother channel, obviously, and that goes back to what you were just saying about, you know, the digital footprint or the digital presence. Yeah, yeah, you've got to have a website that speaks directly to the future clients that you wish to build a communication channel with, and so one of the things that one of the biggest issues that I see with architecture websites is that they are designed to appeal and speak mainly to other architects, not to clients. They're not client-centric at all. And so, you know, your question was, what would someone do? The biggest shift that you can make, and the thing that's going to have the most profound impact, is to figure out who you're talking to, who your future client is, and then frame your messaging for that particular either segment or group or customer,
Ayo Abbas 44:39
and I think that's really important, and I think that's the bit that people don't do. I also like the part you said earlier about service pages. Service pages are like the untapped thing. Most architects don't have them. You can have one long service page, that's not great, but actually, if you can have a page for feasibility, a page for all of that, that is going to be what people are likely to be searching for, and I think that's what people don't. Realize, is actually that's probably some of the biggest, biggest ways of getting commercial search terms onto your website. People who are ready to buy is having those service pages, and yet so many people don't have them at all on their website at all.
Rachael Bernstone 45:11
Yes, absolutely.
Ayo Abbas 45:13
But no, I completely agree about writing to an actual customer, and yeah, because I, yeah, the amount of sites I'm like, I have no idea who this is for, I have no idea, you know, and it's literally they are talking to their peers, which I think is a massive issue.
Rachael Bernstone 45:26
Yeah, sometimes you can't even work out where they're located to know if they're around the corner for you, and you know, a good fit geographically. So,
Ayo Abbas 45:34
oh yeah, okay, some practices actually don't even say they're an architecture practice, which also drives me nuts. Thank you so much for coming on to the show, Rachel. I've really enjoyed having you.
Rachael Bernstone 45:44
Thanks, Ayo. It's been great. Where's
Ayo Abbas 45:45
the best place for people to find you?
Rachael Bernstone 45:47
My website, SoundsLikedesign.com.au
Ayo Abbas 45:50
Fantastic. And I will put links into your quiz and also links to your newsletter as well, so that people can read it. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. Take care. Bye.
Rachael Bernstone 46:03
See you.
Ayo Abbas 46:03
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes, which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abbas marketing.com And, of course, if you like the show, please do share it with others on social, as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
