Andy Burnham's first weeks:Social media and Government communications analysis
Andy Burnham has been Prime Minister for few weeks and the content he's been pushing out has been relentless. Reddit AMAs, a chair in a square in Cardiff, a TikTok account built from zero, 26 posts in two weeks in fact. Politics aside, there's a serious comms strategy running underneath all of it, and it is worth understanding if you are running marketing and BD for a professional firm.
I am joined by two people who have been watching it closely. Alex McCann runs social media agency Altrincham HQ and has been doing this for nearly 17 years. Jaysica Marvell is a social media consultant and a borough councillor in Stevenage, so she sees it from inside politics and outside it.
We get into how much planning sits behind content that looks completely off the cuff, why the person in front of the camera matters more than their job title, the clients who say no to 90 percent of ideas and then wonder why nothing works, and why rough and ready content that's from the heart beats polished anyday.
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Want help with your own marketing and BD strategy in architecture, engineering or construction? That's what I do at Abbas Marketing. Get in touch: ayo@abbasmarketing.com
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Jaysica Marvell - Jaysica Marketing
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is hosted by Ayo Abbas. It is a show that is unashamedly about marketing for architects and engineers, as well as bringing forward voices that we don't always get to hear.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 0:05
Hello and welcome! Thank you so much for joining us. So I'm I am Abbas. I am a marketing consultant, and I specialize in working with built environment firms. And today I've got two brilliant guests. We've got Alex and Jaysica. And over to you. I guess first, Alex, do you want to introduce yourself? Who you are and what you do?
Alex McCann 0:22
Yeah, I'm Alex McCann. I run a social media company called Altrincham HQ. We've been running for nearly 17 years, and before that, I used to run an events company, and I used to be a journalist, mainly interviewing rock and roll stars. But I interviewed a few politicians in my time, so that's my background.
Ayo Abbas 0:39
And Jaysica,
Jaysica Marvell 0:41
Hi, I'm Jaysica Marvell, and I am a borough counselor in Stevenage, but I'm also a social media consultant. I've been working in marketing for about 10 years now, and I am also running workshops at the moment, helping people do face-to-camera content for their businesses. It's been great. Very busy at the moment. Lots of people need to do social media and face-to-camera content is really, really growing. Yeah, so very excited to talk about this topic today.
Ayo Abbas 1:10
Fantastic. So, as we know, Andy Burnham is has been prime minister for a massive three weeks now, and he's actually on holiday this week. But the content is still coming. Clearly, I keep seeing it all the time. So in that time, I guess he skipped mainly the traditional kind of press conference format, and he's kind of gone to other platforms and done other things. So things like ask me any things on Reddit, sitting on a chair on a square in Cardiff, which I thought was quite interesting, taking questions from the public, basically, as well as you know, he's built up quite a TikTok following from zero since he's come in. Really, from from actually when he was running for the Makerfield by-election. So yeah, so he's already kind of growing really fast on social media channels. So, as you know, professionals, we've all been watching it, and kind of what I've done is sat down and cracked the numbers, which is why I wanted to bring you both on today, so we can kind of pick apart what he's doing, what's working, what isn't, and what it means if you're running comms for a business rather than the government government. Because I guess love him or loath him, politics aside, this is a really interesting conversation, especially for UK business and comms. I'm going to start off with the question that I do ask my clients sometimes, which is the thing about should businesses be interested in politics? I'm going to start with you, Jaysica.
Jaysica Marvell 2:31
Like I, I think everybody should be involved in politics because politics literally affects everyone, everyone. And I know that there are always. I always get people telling me, I don't really do politics. I don't really get into it, but I think it's changing now. At the moment, people are realizing politics is out there. We have to deal with it. There are some really crazy things that are happening at the moment that affect everybody. Rules changing, laws changing, or people noticing that things are maybe not going in the way that really protects us. So, I'm hearing more voices, but I think businesses also need to talk about how some of the laws are affecting, you know, affecting their businesses too. You know, there's been a lot about national insurance contributions. Businesses need to talk, and they need to be really honest to the government, and they can do this via their social media, talking about how when policy changes are made, it affects their business, and they want change. They want better things, and doing it through their social media not only gets the attention, hopefully you would, of the government, but the people that buy from them as well.
Ayo Abbas 3:35
And you, Alex, anything you want to add to that?
Alex McCann 3:36
You know what? I have I have really mixed opinions on this because I've been on social media since like literally day dot, and I've seen the best and the worst of humanity on social media. And I think I kind of shy away from politics a lot. I take an interest in it. I read about politics all the time. I read books on politics. I've interviewed politicians, but in terms of putting your opinion out there, because sort of Twitter was the big channel that we launched on, and sort of launched our business back in the day in 2009. When you see all the hate over there, I I start to go down the opinion of like, can you really change anyone's opinion by a 280 character tweet or a a LinkedIn post? I think yes, we need to show an interest in politics. I I think that we obviously, as business owners, it does impact us. It impacts our clients. I work from hospitalities to charity to tradesmen, so it impacts everything. But I think we need to redefine how we talk about it because I think it's rarely civil. It really is. It's real, and I think that's the biggest problem. If people could discuss politics in the same way that they might discuss it face-to-face, but online, I think it would be very, very valuable. But I think just people are abusive generally online when it comes to politics.
Ayo Abbas 4:52
But it's also worth saying that you do run a Facebook group as well, like a regional one, and you must see that all the time, right?
Alex McCann 4:59
Oh, yeah. 57,000 members, of which some people are very, very vocal on there, and the block button gets used regularly.
Ayo Abbas 5:06
And you, Jaysica, because I know you're-you know-you do social media, but you're also a counselor. How are you finding that kind of political, politic, being political and being on social media?
Jaysica Marvell 5:16
So I actually run the social media for my local party team, and it has been really interesting. We had a really successful campaign that helped me get elected, and the audience did notice that that who I was. They recognised me, and they actually voted for me because they'd seen me talk about issues that were relevant to them. So it is necessary to get out there, and this was also paid stuff. Sometimes you'd have a little bit of negativity. I had some people asking me, "Are you actually from Stevenage? Because you don't have a British accent. That's because I grew up in the states. It's a long story, but people people will always criticize, and sadly, there are some politicians I know, some local councilors, who refuse to go on social media, especially women, because of all the nasty comments they get, but when I see the the MP, my local MP, or other people, other politicians, yes, they get a lot of negativity. But it's really, really important to ignore some of that. You can't. You have to acknowledge some of it when they're relevant, when they're when they're important issues. But a lot of the time, that negativity comes from. I don't know. I don't know. I think. I think. Unfortunately, the platforms themselves have not done enough to protect people, to block these kind of things, to put people off from saying these negative negative things. It's just created this atmosphere of negativity, which is the reality of doing politics on social media, and not just politics, but almost businesses, all sorts of people. You are going to get that negativity. It's how you deal with it and how you respond to it that's really important, because you you just have to be aware of it.
Ayo Abbas 6:54
So we're obviously going to be talking about, I guess, an insider view. Is this a new dawn for government comms? Which is a nice place to start on the kind of whole politics debate. So, in terms of, I guess, Andy Burnham, he's done quite a few things since he's come in, which is, I guess, relegating the press conferences and how important they are to his comms strategy, but then doing more for, dare I say it, the people, and kind of getting out there and giving, I guess, ordinary members of the public more access to him. So it's quite a kind of new way of doing government communications than we've seen for, especially for people in power. Do you think it's the same? Do you think he's just doing the more of the same stuff, or do you think he is actually truly different? Do you want to kick off, Alex? Yeah,
Alex McCann 7:37
I mean it's interesting because I'm based in Manchester, so we see a lot of Andy Burnham. I've seen him speak like at three different events and give three very different talks. So the one thing I will say about Andy Burnham is he definitely speaks to who's in front of him. So I've seen him speak at rock and roll gigs. I've seen him speak at business events in Manchester City Centre. Then I've seen him speak at businesses where I live in a small town called Altrinham. So he definitely gives the audience what they want to hear, and he's a very good public speaker. As you saw when he when he became prime minister, he spoke without notes essentially, and he's he's a very good public speaker. So I think he's he's the right person to do this. Is what I generally think. Like Keir Starmer, like him, don't like him. He was a terrible communicator, and he couldn't be doing the same things that Andy Burnham was doing. He couldn't go on TikToks and be be human. So I think it's the right person at the right time in the right place. I think is the thing, and he's basically he's continuing what he did as mayor, and he's continuing what he did when he went thrashed in the mega field. He hasn't really changed, so it's going to be interesting to see what it's like when he gets back up holiday and he has to meet world leaders. Is he still going to be doing TikToks in six months' time in the same frequency and so on like that?
Ayo Abbas 8:52
Yeah, I mean that is the thing I've seen him speak as well in various things in Manchester. And you're right, he is. I mean, I guess he's a chameleon, right? He's a chameleon as well as a communicator, he knows how to look at that audience and think, "What do they really want to hear from me? And I guess that's a good thing and a bad thing because it may make you question, "What does that person actually really stand for or believe in? So it's going to be interesting, I think, as it goes on how that would work. Did you want to add to that, just Jaysica?
Jaysica Marvell 9:18
Yeah, I. It's interesting because I think this is a very clever way of dealing with the press because the press can twist things around that you say on the cuff. So I think it's interesting that he decided not to do that after his press conference. And the other thing is that on social media, if he's talking directly to people, people appreciate that. People really respond to being directly spoken to, and it it shows empathy in a way because he's responding to the type of audience that he's talking to, and it means that people can make up for their own mind without being dissuaded by the press about what you know what the press are going to turn things into, his comments into. So that's really. Interesting, the way he's dealt with that. But I agree. If you're responding to every different audience and you're that kind of chameleon, then how do you keep your authenticity as well? Because that just sounds like you're just, you know, playing up for each audience separately. But that's, I don't know. That's a great communicator, I would say as well.
Ayo Abbas 10:19
Yeah, I guess I mean for me, I do find him refreshing. Like it's good to actually see somebody there, and I think for me it was like we hadn't seen voices of government for a while. It just felt like people were hiding, and so it's been quite nice to actually see somebody who's actually front and center of stage, really, and especially for I guess I'm online a lot as well, so that's the other thing. And I guess looking at the kind of channels and things that he's doing, so like things like Reddit and X, things like that, they're not necessarily where you typically go as a politician. Anything you want to add on that, Jaysica? Yeah, again, really
Jaysica Marvell 11:00
interesting. Like my husband is not a social media person, but for some reason, in the last couple of years, he's recently taken to Reddit, which I think is just-I don't know why-it just feels like a very-I don't want to say this, but it is very gendered. To feel like Reddit is very male-oriented, and or maybe more men use it because it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like social media, and X's-I don't know-I used to love Twitter so much, but X's-you know-he's catering for every audience because he is our prime minister. He is for everybody. He is-he is there to represent all of our choices and beliefs and and do the best that he can. So, if you have to, I've persuaded my team not to use X anymore because I don't think it's the right place for us in my in in our politics anyway.
Ayo Abbas 11:50
Yeah, how do you feel on the kind of Reddit and X debate and where he's chosen to be, Alex?
Alex McCann 11:57
So, X is an interesting one, as you said, because it was only a few weeks ago that Lisa Nandy leaved X in quite a big vocal, saying, "I've not been on there. This is a place of hate and division. And for Andy Burnham still to be there, it's almost it's it's two different sides of the same coin. I'm still on X. I'm still one of the people that stayed there. As much like you, I loved it in the old days when it was Twitter. I kind of hate it at the moment, but I'm there out of habit. But I think he's possibly there still on X because journalists are still there on X, and it's that communication is is is cut out the press conferences, but he knows that anything he puts out there on social media is going to be reported anyway, and ultimately you can put something still on X as Andy Burnham, as the Prime Minister, and it can reach millions and millions of people within an hour. So I don't know what the viewership is for the 6 o'clock news or the 10 o'clock news, but I imagine his social media presence is is equal to that.
Ayo Abbas 12:59
Yeah, I mean X is such an interesting one. I came off it a few years back because I was just like, it's basically a cesspit and and I well, I just thought I don't really want to go online for negativity. It was my own personal view, and I guess there is also a reputational thing of being on there as well for organizations, right? Which I think you do have to think about. But I think X is one of those the ones where there are a lot of people still on it, and you can reach a lot of people. So I do understand why he needs to be there, especially especially if he's saying I want to reach more people from more diverse audiences across the country, right? And so I I completely understand that. And I guess if you come off a platform that has its issues in itself. That you're cutting off certain audiences and demographics, right? So I understand why he's there. Could I do it? Probably not. It's like, but you know, I'm I'm not I'm not doing his role. That's for sure.
Alex McCann 13:55
Yeah, I think what as well you've got as as a politician is you've got all the local MPs still on platforms like X, so it's not it's not like an engagement pod, but you could pretty much go. I've just tied it up a bit, and then suddenly you've got like 300 retweets from every politician in in the country, and it's kind of that's how it snowballs. We we as marketers we talk down engagement pods on LinkedIn and other platforms, but essentially, politics is one mass engagement pod to a certain extent.
Ayo Abbas 14:26
Oh God, can we start a campaign on LinkedIn? No, to politicians on that engagement pod. So anyway, so he kind of was doing all these kind of weekly roundups: week one, week two. I wonder if they will be week three today, as he pre-recorded it already as he's on holiday, or he's going to do it from the beach. But yeah, so he's kind of done 26 posts in two weeks. Week one was, I think, he kicked off with four, three or four posts a day in the first couple of days, and then it's kind of averaging two a day, and it's kind of a mix of stuff. And I think he was kind of trying to. Anyway, I say shit at the wall. That's probably not the right technical term to use. But I think they talk about like flooding the flooding the zone and just trying out different formats and seeing what works, right? So, what do you think of this strategy, and what do you think it is? I guess is my first question. Who wants to go first?
Jaysica Marvell 15:18
Yeah, I'll say I think it's a a great way to start an account is to just start creating lots and lots of content because if you want to get followers quickly and before you've got a reputation, you want to post as much as possible. And clearly, there's his social media team have been working really hard to get that ready, prep it all, get it all out there because there's no way you could just do this off the cuff every day. It's been planned, it's been targeted, it's been you know how do we cover each audience? How do we tackle all these issues? You like scheduling all of that, getting it all ready. You can see how much work has got into it, and it actually works when you, especially when you're starting out, because nobody's nobody's got any preconceptions yet. So it's a great way, and people want to see what what's he doing next.
Ayo Abbas 16:09
Alex, would I add to that?
Alex McCann 16:10
Yeah, I think as you said, he is throwing a lot at the wall and testing what works. And I think we've all probably got different opinions on what sort of content has worked and what hasn't. I think some of the content I've seen when he's rating pub snacks and he's talking about bombs versus cobs and stuff that makes me cringe a little bit. But I mean, that's a personal opinion. There might be someone else who absolutely loves that, and he just said it's touching it to different audiences. And I think it's interesting. 26 posts in two weeks, so that that is that is effectively like nearly two posts a day. That's that's a lot, and I think it's weird because you watch the TikTok experts, and you were talking before about yapping content and speaking to camera, and it's when you look at like the TikTok experts or the gurus, they're advising, oh yeah, post 10 pieces of content a day. So it's kind of that's that's ridiculous amount. But I think it's interesting, and I think you'll you'll find his rhythm. You'll find what works. He's he's he's getting that mixture of light and serious content in there. And I think again, he's he's trying to speak to all audiences, and it it still feels natural whatever he's doing as well.
Ayo Abbas 17:19
No, he is a he is a master communicator, and you you can't deny that. And I guess I mean I'm similar to you. I I kind of have not really enjoyed the pub stuff. I'm like I only see you drinking a pint. Like I just you know, but I do think I understand what he's trying to do, and it's he's not necessarily appealing to me. There'll be other people go, oh great, he's one of us kind of thing. But I do. I don't know. It's just I. Some of the government content is this what we? I guess I always have that feeling of is this really what we want to see from our political leaders, or am I more interested in policies than him drinking a pint? Or I guess the pint was linked to launching a policy on VAT, wasn't it, or whatever, and rates. But I think that there is that line, and I think some of the kind of trend-based content or some of the stuff that they do with influencers, they need to be careful because some of that, I'm like, that doesn't come across very well.
Alex McCann 18:11
No, I saw a post on Fred's. I think it was yesterday where a partner's been talk about how he's supposedly been told to calm down his laviness or is
Alex McCann 18:22
is Manchester behaviour,
Alex McCann 18:24
and but he's he is a northern bloke who likes football and likes to fight and likes Manchester indie bands, so he kind of is being himself. You're not expecting him to start painting his nails and so on like that on TikTok just to appeal to a different demographic. He he's kind of got to beat while he
Jaysica Marvell 18:39
is, and I also don't think that it's just blokes who who are interested in those things. Women love football. Women love clubs. So I I disagree with that. Like that, he should be toning down his blokeishness because that is part of his authenticity. He's coming across as himself, even if it is, even if it isn't real. If it even if it isn't authentic, it appears authentic, and he delivers it like he's he believes it that way. Do you do you know what I mean?
Ayo Abbas 19:05
Yeah, I mean he is an amazing communicator, and the way delivers it stuff, it is it does it doesn't come across as fake or false or him being forced to do something. Because I remember last year watching a clip where Rachel Reeves was it was just before the October budget, Rachel Reeves was being interviewed for UK Labour's social media, and they were asking her, "What's your favorite Beyonce song? She clearly didn't like Beyonce, but she just looked so awkward, and it was just you know when you're like, this is not content that is working for you as an individual, or or positioning you in the way that you need to be positioned, so I think there are times where you're like, this doesn't feel authentic, and I think that authenticity is really, really important.
Jaysica Marvell 19:48
And I have to say, in comparison to Keir Starmer, because I was looking at some of his content, you know, he's got the same sort of team who are telling him, "This is what you need to do. This is what here's your script. Here's here's what you need to say." You can see all of that's happening with Andy Burnham. The difference is, Keir Starmer doesn't come across as very comfortable in his own skin. That's what I think his biggest problem is. He's almost too self-aware. I know he's a he has a background as a humanitarian lawyer, and I think when you're a lawyer, especially, you're very very careful and considered with your with your wording, which in the court and things like in in government and in parliament are really really important. However, when you're just delivering social media, you need to change that. You need to be a little bit more relaxed. And Andy Burnham's really really good at being relaxed and delivering his his what he's trying to say in the most natural and empathetic way. That's what I say. Yeah,
Alex McCann 20:41
I was just to say, like the most authentic piece of content that I feel I've seen, and I can't remember where it was his own piece of content or where it was like a filmed piece of content, but it was where he came out of Number 10 North, and he just comes out and he just goes, Manchester, I love you, I love you like that, and it was kind of, it was half presidential, and it was half very northern and grounded at the same time. And it was kind of like, wow, that was kind of a moment. I thought, like, it was a really good piece of content. And as I said, I can't remember it. It's his own or someone just like the TV crews filmed
Jaysica Marvell 21:15
it. No, I've not seen that one. I'm going to look out for that one. But yeah, I mean, he does come across very well. I have to. I have to admit. And in terms of, I guess, a business, and they're looking to kind of, I guess, have their own. I'm going to say Andy Burnham moments are just ignored. But like, how can they kind of emulate what he's doing? Do you think they can? I've already seen it with Marks and Spencers. If you're not watching Catherine from Marks and Spencers, who got two of her younger colleagues to help her do her start her new account on TikTok, where she talked about because she works in the food section, so she helps sort of come up with all the ideas and all the new stuff that and the way that that's been delivered on TikTok. Like they've got a camera following her; she's not doing it herself. It does feel a little bit, you know, like prepared and planned and whatnot. But it's a great way of using what somebody coined at the last Otomacon. Somebody coined the word embedded influencer, which I think is really interesting when you're coming from a company or or the government having somebody who's embedded within the company, who really knows what they're talking about, who's been in the job for a really long time, can be the best person to sort of represent the company, show people what they're trying to do, and show people that we're listening to you as well. We're listening to what you want. We're listening to what people are interested in at the moment, and this is what we're producing for you. And those kind of embedded influencers are brilliant. Catherine is absolutely brilliant at delivering that kind of content
Ayo Abbas 22:47
because she's actually generating a lot of sales as well. It's not even just it's on TikTok. It's like people are literally following her stuff and buying
Jaysica Marvell 22:53
100%
Ayo Abbas 22:55
which is which is which is the holy grail, really, isn't it?
Jaysica Marvell 22:58
Yeah.
Ayo Abbas 22:59
How about you, Alex? Do you know something people can do to emulate them?
Alex McCann 23:02
Yeah, I think it's the whole talking to camera thing and just just being yourself that kind of works, and that's what Andy Burnham's doing. But lots of business owners are doing. I know over the years there's been various trends from sitting in your car in a car park and talking to camera and stuff like that. But I think just the the act of talking to camera and being yourself, it gets you noticed. I mean, I I'm quite an introvert normally. I know I don't come across at it, but I'm on social all the time doing that whole talking to camera piece, where it's talking about the latest social media update, or talking about rock and roll, or talking about something, and it gets you known. For me, it gets me known in a very small area of Altrincham in South Manchester. But I have everything from 40-year-olds coming up to me, and because I'm on TikTok lately, annoyingly, I don't know. It's annoyingly. It's a bit annoying. I've had teenagers come up to me, and
Ayo Abbas 23:58
you're the Altrincham man. What do they say when they come up to you? We
Alex McCann 24:01
have. I had someone outside the local co-op go, "Oh my god, it's the ultimate guy, and I'm like, "I've had that so many, so many times that I keep just messaging my mate as an oldie on Facebook and keep saying I've had another person come up to me about TikTok. It's kind of, but it shows it works, and I think it's all down to having the right person in the business that is a good communicator. Like you, you mentioned M&S before. There's a guy that's sort of a running influence up here in in Manchester, but his day job is working in M&S, and they've sort of started using him in the local M&S, I think it's Old Trafford or Stafford, and he's just-he's a character. But you stop and notice when he's talking about this latest, these latest Percy Pigs or whatever from M&S. People really do stop and notice him.
Jaysica Marvell 24:54
Absolutely, absolutely. I want more businesses to do this, and I know this has been going on for. A long time. I I used to work for a company that did that used to help with the Twitter on for Salesforce UK, and the CEO at the time I can't remember his name, but he was prolific on Twitter. He talked about everything to do with Salesforce. He talked about his people. He talked about you know all kinds of things going on. So it was it was a great way of demonstrating the company's values or the company the company valuing people as well. So having CEOs and people within the businesses talk about the business, I want to see more of that. To be honest, I want to see more of that because it does make me think like I I probably buy more from M&S than I ever used to before because I trust what they're trying to say, and it doesn't mean I like every product. I've tried some of the products, and I'm like, that wasn't great, but it doesn't matter. I still go keep going back because they're telling me what they're doing. They're telling me what their insight is. They're telling me about what's trending. They're telling me what's about what's going to come out soon, and I can't wait to try it. You know, so I love seeing that with businesses, and I think more businesses need to do that. Definitely, yeah.
Alex McCann 26:07
And I think if you if you're uncomfortable being on camera, there's probably a there's probably a middle ground as well. I mean, we've got one of our clients; it's a restaurant client that we worked with, and he definitely isn't the sort of person to speak on camera. He doesn't use social media at all. We manage social media for him, and I was like, "Well, if we don't do you on camera, can we just get some photos of you? He's comfortable with that, and we've we've put text over it and then told a story and like told the story in text form, and we did free posts. And okay, it's not reached millions of people, but it's reached like 45,000 people in a town of 75,000 people, and that is driving customers through doors. So there's that middle ground if you don't want to speak on camera, because going back to the politics things, we've talked about Andy Burnham's authenticity. If social media would have been such a big thing, because I was thinking about politics and the nature of social media. Gordon Brown couldn't have done this. Like, remember when Gordon Brown talked about liking the Arctic Monkeys? He's like, no, you don't. You mean
Ayo Abbas 27:12
Arctic role? I think he meant an Arctic roll, Alex. And
Jaysica Marvell 27:16
I can tell you why some of these people are not comfortable. It's because they haven't lived through social media, they haven't been observing social media, and I get this a lot in politics of people saying, "I don't do social media, like they're too good for it, and that really irritates me because the rest of the world is there's a lot of people using social media. I get it. If you're not into it, that's fine. Don't use it. Don't don't even try and use it. If you can get a manager to a social media manager to sort of incorporate you the way that you've been talking about, great, do that. But don't even try to talk to camera if you have never watched anybody on camera and how they deliver it on social media. Because there is a way, there is a technique, there is a a way of getting it right, and there is a naturalness that you have to bring to it, because unlike television and ads or what whatever, it it cannot be staged. People pick up on it like that, and you will get instant comments saying, "This doesn't look good to me.
Alex McCann 28:13
No, I quite like. Again, he's sort of a Marmite sort of character, but I kind of like Ed Miliband and how he comes across on social media because he does come across. Yes, he's a bit geeky. Yes, he's a bit awkward, but ultimately he comes across as himself, and he he doesn't try and be slick and doesn't try and be polished. And I think it's kind of since that can't eat a bacon sandwich moment, he's he's kind of like he's become a bit self depreciating. He's like has a bit of fun and has a bit of a laugh with it, and he comes across quite well, I think.
Jaysica Marvell 28:47
Yeah, didn't they have the same strategist as well? I think. Yeah, I think a lot
Ayo Abbas 28:51
of them. Yeah, he worked. He worked with Abby Tomlinson. There's a number of them who have, and he is one of them. But I do. I mean, I think with social social media, I think is there like a divide now? Be like you know because I get this sometimes when people are like they'll be talking about something like PR like media related to me, but they'll be like, oh no, they definitely wouldn't touch social media. Like it's a second class thing. Like, do you know what I mean? And I'm sitting there just thinking, you're making it sound like social media is this lowly thing that is done by 10 year olds. Like, do you know what I mean? And yeah, you don't realise that actually, if you do it really well, it can make a huge impact on your business if you do it strategically.
Jaysica Marvell 29:30
If I had a pound for every person who said, "Just get somebody, just get the intern, or just get somebody young to do your social media for you, I honestly, I'm 50 years old. I'm a social media consultant. I don't, and I'm has nothing to do with being young. It has everything to do with being in tune with the world around you. And I, it, you know, I love that he's got some great strategists. Yes, they are young, but it doesn't mean that young is the always the best way to go. It's finding people who understand. Your audience as well, who understand the world out there, who are able to read the data, who are able to understand how to deliver that that those messages. And messaging is the big core part of it of how it controls your whole strategy. If you don't have that messaging right, nothing's going to work, and doesn't necessarily mean that it's somebody young. It's just got to be somebody who's in tune and understands that. Are
Ayo Abbas 30:25
you a practice leader who isn't getting the industry profile that you deserve? I often hear from practices who do brilliant work but aren't actually getting the visibility they need to get business through the door. Practices that influence the sector aren't necessarily the best at design. They're often better at positioning their expertise and getting it seen and valued by those with budgets. I'm Ayo Abbas, and for 24 years I've helped leading built environment firms build the recognition and authority that their expertise deserves. Drop me a line at ayo@abbasmarketing.com, which is a y o@abbasmarketing.com to set up a call where we can talk about how I can help you get a strategy and plan in place to get you to where you deserve to be. So in terms of Andy, I think I kind of covered most of this. In terms of his biggest successes, seems to be the stuff where he is himself, so he's talking directly to camera. It's shot, I guess, relatively simply, and yeah, it's interesting what stuff is getting the most likes. It is the more kind of rough and ready stuff rather than it's staged. It's it's properly recorded. Any comments on that?
Alex McCann 31:39
Yeah, I think I think it's authentic content works, and when it feels like it's just filmed by someone with the camera, I mean, again, Manchester after Andy Burnham became prime minister, Bev Craig obviously was the Labor candidate, who's now Greater Manchester Mayor, and you can see Bev Craig's content, and it's virtually almost a replication of what Andy Burnham did. So she's doing the obligatory. I'm just filming this after doing a run. You're probably tired of seeing me in my running gear, and it's kind of like it's really interesting to watch. Like, I don't, and again, I don't know whether Joe Public sees this because we all analyze stuff. We all go, "Oh, I can see exactly what they've done. Does the man or woman on the street look at it, go, "Oh, she's just doing exactly the same as Andy Burnham" I'm like really intrigued on that.
Ayo Abbas 32:21
I mean, it's interesting because my last guest was Tim Healey, who's from Capital and Centric in Manchester. Who is, you know, he's he he's he's one of the colleagues. He he's a he's a close kind of ally with with Andy Burnham, but he does similar. You know, you've got the walking walking, talking to camera, holding. Healy uses mobile and things like that. And I think there is a whole school of content like that, and an approach like that, isn't it? And I guess, yeah, we probably see it more than most people do because we're online.
Jaysica Marvell 32:48
It's exactly what I've been doing in my workshops. Really, is showing people how to make really rough and ready content that can just be what I would say very responsive to things that are happening around you. So the perfect timing would be after an event, saying, you know, I've just delivered this speech, and I this is you know this is what I'm thinking about it, and I want to hear more from you. Having that kind of reflective content that talks directly to your audience, and it's it's almost like having a FaceTime, right, with somebody you're like your mom or whatever, and you're having that conversation, so sometimes that camera content like that, even when the angles aren't right, there's I think there's a little picture there of him with looking where his head looks like that, but that's because of the angle he's using. But it just it just it triggers something in your head for people thinking he's talking he's talking directly to me rather than being filmed and staged, if that makes sense,
Ayo Abbas 33:41
and I guess we're away from that. You know, when everything used to be so polished, remembering all polished feed on Instagram was was the holy grail, wasn't it? And now it's just it does feel a bit more rough and ready, and people want the realness,
Jaysica Marvell 33:53
especially because of AI. Because it's so easy to create AI content where you can just feed it, you know, what you want in it takes your image, it makes you look like you're delivering a video. That is happening a lot at the moment. So to be able to distinguish yourself from inauthentic AI content and doing your own content where it's not necessarily perfect, where you're doing it yourself, where you're just putting it out there, and I can tell you, I bet it gets checked as well. I don't think it goes straight out there. It will get checked, but at least, at the very least, it's having that sort of non-specific like messaging coming through to people. That mental trigger: this is a real person who's talking and not somebody who's faking what they're saying.
Ayo Abbas 34:39
Cool. Let's go on. So. So, so I wanted to show this one because I thought this was really interesting. Was that I mean, his TikTok is growing at a rate of not his new TikTok, and obviously we've said how much he's actually posting, which is huge, and we're all on TikTok, which is good because I know there's a lot of social. For people who aren't on all the platforms, which I always find weird, but yeah, I mean, in terms of his TikTok, which is growing super fast, I guess the biggest person is Nigel Farage. He's got 1.5 million followers, which is crazy. I think he set it up in like 22 to 2022. I mean, is there any kind of, I guess, any rules on how business leaders or people could replicate this type of approach or build up such fast traction on on a on a new platform? Do you want to go first, Alex?
Alex McCann 35:29
Yeah, I mean it's interesting because obviously when some become someone becomes prime minister, they're going to have a certain amount of people following them anyway. So it's so it's a certain amount. It's just it's earned because of his title, that's the reality of it. People are just going to follow from all around the world, and they're going to want to see what the prime minister of the UK is going to be posting. That's the reality of it. But I think it's the volume of what he's done. You see a lot of accounts that launch launch on TikTok in quote marks, and then you do one post, and then there's a gap for three weeks before, and that's not how TikTok works. TikTok has got to be planned. It's got to. You've got to think about when we work with businesses. We quite often say before you're even joining this platform, we're actually planning out what content is going to go on them. You've probably got to have three weeks to four weeks worth of content ready to go, even if it's not filmed, at least have the ideas down on paper, and there can be some quick wins off the back of that. But yeah, I suspect there's potentially pieces of content planned all the way to Christmas, even if they're not filmed yet, and that's the reality of it. That it's going to be planned, it's going to be strategized into an inch of its life. That's the reality of
Ayo Abbas 36:41
it. Anything you want to add, Jaysica?
Jaysica Marvell 36:44
Yeah, you know that they're going to have teams who are doing this for them, and this is something I have to say for a lot of the small businesses that I speak to. This is not an achievable thing for small business. This is something that if you have the finance for it, if you have the investment for it, which I can see Andy Brennan is making is that you can have all of this content planned out for months, but I have to say, and looking back, because obviously in politics I have been observing Nigel Farage and Zach Polanski, and Zach Polanski's had some really really interesting posts that he's done. Where again, it's a mixture of direct to camera, like where he's doing it himself, and there was this one very cinematic ad where he was talking about some real situation and he's running through the streets or something like that. I thought that was very, that's a very powerful statement. So sometimes having that kind of very cinematic content can really cut through all the noise on social media, and that's very interesting to see because within months or weeks they've had something like 180,000 people signing up to become members of this of the Green Party, which is very rare. If you look at the stats for all the other parties, no other party has been able to achieve membership like that through just like just where a spike, didn't he? Where he just went, he just went off off the scale. And Hannah the plumber, Hannah Spence, brilliant, brilliant, more more kind of of that authentic basic content, which which worked really well in the in her in her election at was in Manchester as well. Yeah, but she's an
Ayo Abbas 38:18
amazing communicator. She's another one, isn't she?
Jaysica Marvell 38:21
And she's just real. She's just real. So, yeah, we like that.
Ayo Abbas 38:26
But do you often find that business leaders are actually scared of being real, Alex?
Alex McCann 38:32
I think everyone's scared of putting themselves out there. I think that's the reality of it. Like because you speak to everything from small business owners to really successful business owners that have got hundreds of members of staff, and they all sort of have that worry, that doubt. One, first of all, will people care about what I'm posting? And two, what if people get what if I get something wrong? And I say to most business owners that probably the the biggest thing you're going to get wrong if you just use your brain for a little second is you're probably going to put a typo out there at one time. That's probably the reality of it. Unless you, as a business owner, unless you really wade into what I'd call divisive politics or extreme politics, you're not gonna you're not gonna come a cropper. Is the reality of it. So I think you've just got to be bold enough to put yourself out there, but think about what you want to be known for. I think having we call them content tellers as we know in marketing, but having those three three to five things that you want to be known for, and almost stick to those, and then the odd time you might throw in a rogue post like Andy Burnham's pub snacks or something like that. But but yeah, that was weird.
Alex McCann 39:42
Yeah, it was weird. But I think I throw in random things every so often just to see how it will fly. So I was talking about Strictly yesterday, but in relation to marketing and that marketers have to trend jack everything. And I was like, I only know four contestants from Strictly, but we always. Onto the Grammys, the Met Gala, and this, and assume that everyone knows what we're talking about. So I think that was a random one. I'd never talked about Strictly in 17 years of business. I
Ayo Abbas 40:10
have actually. Do you know what? Oh no, it was the Masked Singer. I think I had one where we're watching the Masked Singer, and I think I put a cardboard box on my son's head and took a picture and posted it. I think that was my biggest post I've ever had. But
Jaysica Marvell 40:26
it's but it's weird. People watch it. It's relatable. You know that's the thing. And I have to say, one of the things I see most often, and strictly do this too, is that they're posting content that they know people are going to comment on. They go, of course, they're going to people who are who are. If you want to capture the wide spectrum of people out there, you are not going to include everybody. So finding people who are specific from a specific audience, you know, that's what that's going to do. Is people, of course, people going to say, who who who are they? I don't even know who they are. Well, that's because you're not. They're trying to capture a huge audience, and there's going to be ones that you know, and there's going to be ones that you don't know. People are going to comment on it, and strictly, you know, their their their social has been excellent, and they know that they're going to get those comments, and that's what exactly what they're trying to do.
Ayo Abbas 41:16
Their socials have always been excellent, consistently, and they have. They really are. They're very, very good. Okay, let's move on. So, people behind the socials, which I think is fascinating. So, we're all similar ages, right? Which we are. We are from 48 to 50. That's between us. So, the people behind the socials. So, like Abby Tomlinson, I think is fascinating because she's done a lot of the UK Labour 2024 campaign, which got them into power. She also worked for Keir Starmer for a bit, but then left because I can imagine
Jaysica Marvell 41:48
spicy.
Ayo Abbas 41:49
Well, I well, I would imagine that his style isn't necessarily the speaking to camera style. You know,
Jaysica Marvell 41:56
if I was his social media manager, I would be so frustrated because you know he's doing and saying everything he's supposed to, but he just falls flat. Honestly, I would be like, "Oh my god, can I just do this for somebody else? Because I can't, I can't. Yeah, but
Ayo Abbas 42:14
his argument could be, "I'm just going to get my head down and do my job. Yeah, yeah, you know that's it. I'm doing my job. Why are you asking me to do this stuff?
Jaysica Marvell 42:22
Yeah,
Ayo Abbas 42:22
and then also when I started digging, as I do, Jack Anderton, who is kind of considered to be the brains behind Nigel Farage's social media stuff and also reform, so he's obviously built up a massive following as well in terms of those both of those on in terms of the TikTok outlets and X and all of that kind of stuff. So, is social media a young person's game? Are we out of it?
Jaysica Marvell 42:51
Don't want to go back on that again. Yes, like there's the whole millennial generation who have like grown up with it. Who I and I've worked with a lot of you know younger people who are absolutely brilliant. It doesn't. There are people who are going to be brilliant at it, and there are people who are going to be all kinds of ages and even better. And it it doesn't. It's the knowledge base. It's how much you consume as well, because I think you do have to consume a lot of content. If you really want to understand how to make good content, so it's interesting that they're both quite young, but it's not a surprise to me. And it wouldn't be-I wouldn't be surprised if there were a whole bunch of other people working on their strategy too. And it's not just them too; could just be they're the they're the the face of it. I would say. Yeah. Anything on the age thing, Alex?
Alex McCann 43:43
Yeah, I mean, I see what other people are doing on social because we're all naturally curious. So when we see a business or brand that we're aware of, you can kind of guess who's behind it, and you start rooting and seeing who's behind it. And it's interesting; these two are obviously doing really, really good jobs, but equally, I think it's more down to the mindset than the age, because you can see young people managing social media who don't have the strategy and the business knowledge behind it, and all they're doing is jumping from trend to trend. So I've lost count of the number of coffee shops or pubs obscene with people throwing coffee in people's faces or pints in people's faces, and I'm like, they're doing that for every single client, and all they're doing is trend jacking, and I'm like, I'm bored of it. The country's bored of it, and that is a bit of naivety on a perhaps a young person's game. I don't think we'd find any of us following every single trend that goes by, so I think in a certain extent, there's good and bad in all age groups. I would say, and that's the reality. It's down to your mindset. It's down to your business understanding when you're dealing with businesses, because we know that it's got to drive sales for that business ultimately, or it's got to drive some form of business results like. None of my clients care about the amount of likes, comments, follows they get. They care. They're busy. That's what they really really care about.
Ayo Abbas 45:07
And I also, I think, yeah, absolutely right. I think it's that mindset, your knowledge, but also it's also knowing, I guess, how to deal with who's in front of you as well. I think that that that part because the thing that frustrates me sometimes is that whole oh, there's one playbook or one way of doing something, and I think that that happens a lot when it comes to socials. And I often think you've got to kind of look at and go, actually, does this actually work for the people in front of me, and and and actually, what what would work better for them and still work for their objectives and things like that. And I think quite often people are just going to, I guess, be a one trick pony, but I-I mean, I don't think these guys are. But I think it's quite interesting the whole thing around working for Keir Starmer and then leaving because it's like actually, if you're-if that's your approach, the more of the face to camera and all this kind of stuff-he ain't your man, you know. And that would be a frustrating role to be in. It really would. Yeah,
Alex McCann 46:00
you've got the right people to work with, and that's that's the same with all of us. We've got to have the right clients to work with. We can't put 100% in, and the client is putting 10% in, and they're still expecting results. Like the the good thing about what Jack and Abby have got to deal with is they've got people who are prepared to say yes. And I've posted about this recently. Like you can't always judge a social media manager by what you see in public because probably 70% never gets pulled out there because someone said no along the way, and and that's a reality. And I think probably what Burnham and probably what Farage do is they probably say yes to the vast majority of things and say no to not a lot. And we've dealt. We've all probably dealt with clients who say no to 90% of stuff, and then they're wondering why it's not working.
Ayo Abbas 46:46
Yeah, and you're like, wow! I gave you like 100 ideas. Yeah, and and
Jaysica Marvell 46:51
and I work. So I do all the campaigns for my team, for all the councilors, all the people that are running for elections, and there are going to be people who are terrific on camera, and I use them over and over again. And there are going to be people who are not necessarily. And I have to little, you know, a little bit coaching, a little bit of help. And then there's also content. Like I use CapCut templates sometimes with to give like a video collage, right, of things moving in a really fast rate. It's quite, you know, quick. Just see lots of images. And I've had some people on my team saying, "Can you slow that down a bit? Because I couldn't couldn't see it, and I'm like, "It's not it's not meant for you. It's a style of content that works really well. It's not necessarily meant to be seen in that way. And just work with it. Just bear with me. Trust me. This is how things go. There's going to be content that your clients or whoever are going to get, and there's going to be content that they don't. But it's always going to be about the audience. It's not about
Alex McCann 47:50
them. And and one thing I would say about the difference between older people like us and younger people is one thing that I do find like younger people in marketing generally disregard is Facebook. Like Facebook has got the people who are either a voting for politicians or b have the disposable income to spend on businesses, and and I think sometimes that is what I see on like a young market who works with businesses. They're all on Instagram. They're all on TikTok, but their biggest demographic is 45-50 year-olds, and they've got a Facebook page that's got like two people who follow it or something like that. And I do, I do think you, if you're marketing towards middle-aged people and upwards, you need to understand Facebook. And if you're a young marketer, you're going to have to spend time on Facebook pages, Facebook groups, understanding all of that side of things, which traditional not on.
Jaysica Marvell 48:46
You've got to know how to do these Facebook ads because I've been doing them for years, and it's not easy. And it's something you have to like really develop a skill for, and you've got to really understand those audiences. And I have to say, they've been really successful for our campaigns, we've you know we've for just a small town counselors that I'm trying to get content out for. We've had up to like 40,000 views, which which is done through those ads. So you do have to really understand the platform to be able to do that as well, for sure. And the people that use them, I guess it
Ayo Abbas 49:19
is all down to your your target audience and really understanding where it is that they hang out. It's it's a basic, but it's it's something that people can, I guess, people prefer to kind of go where they feel comfortable, right?
Jaysica Marvell 49:31
And just because people are younger doesn't mean that they don't still look at Facebook and see those ads because those are the first things that come up. The ads, you know, they will come up through Instagram stories. They'll come up through whatever. So yeah, even if they say they're not, they're not. If they're not focusing their work on it, they're they're seeing it. They're seeing.
Ayo Abbas 49:51
So yeah, I just want to touch on the new roles. So the government media union. When I was on holiday, they have put up. I think it's actually. Involve new roles that they're recruiting all around social media and communications, which I thought was really interesting. And then split between United, the Manchester hybrid, but they're actually asking for people to have skills such as you being in front of and behind the camera and things like that. And it's a really wide range of roles. I mean, what do you want to say about that, Jaysica?
Jaysica Marvell 50:20
Yeah, I saw this too. I saw somebody else on TikTok commenting on it. I commented on it in on TikTok. What I have to say is, the it's not just like the variety of roles, but how much they're paying is pretty good for the market. I am surprised because, you know, I I've interviewed for roles like this, and the pay has been a lot less, and especially around London. And it's very interesting even to see the ones outside of London have very similar pay too. And I think that's really smart because if you want to get the right, the best people, you've got to be competitive. And so far in politics, up to up until today, the pay for roles in for political parties or whatnot, even or even for government roles, NHS roles has been really really low. So what that tells me is that they're very interested in getting the best of the best. They're making competitive offers and they're taking this very very seriously.
Ayo Abbas 51:20
It's refreshing. I have to admit, I don't think I've seen that many roles, and and they're and they're well they're well thought out and spec'd out as well, which I think is it's a big statement of intent. Alex,
Alex McCann 51:30
yeah, I mean, I I when this these posts were all over LinkedIn, all over X, all over TikTok, when people were discussing them, and and and you saw the reaction from the public-I mean, we see it from the professional angle and why it's needed. But the reaction from the public was kind of like-he's not a TikTok tour; he's a politician. Why does he need all of these roles? And I think that what Joe public don't understand is how many roles are actually happen behind the scenes, anyways. We exist. I mean, our local council, Trafford Council-they must have about 456, PR people that regularly send me press releases, and no one complains about that. And they're sending press releases for anything. And I think my answer to someone on social media when they they commented on all of these roles, saying why is it needed, and I sort of answered something along the lines of what a prime minister communicating where the general public are. Why is that not needed? And I think that goes down to perhaps a lack of understanding from the general public and small business owners. Like we've all been working with business owners where they expect us to be the graphic designer, the videographer, the photographer, the copywriter, the community manager-everything-and they want to pay the bare minimum for it. Each role is distinct in marketing, and I think they're doing the right thing here.
Ayo Abbas 52:50
Yeah, it was interesting. I think I, you know, I recently had a call where they were like, "Oh, so you're going to do that? But are you also going to pick up the phone and sell for us? I went, "No. so yeah, yeah. That's the thing. People, I guess, people don't understand what it actually takes to do good communications, and it is that strategy side having that clearly spelt out, and then having a team who are skilled enough to develop to deliver it well.
Jaysica Marvell 53:19
I have to add one of the women in our digital women network that you and I I have met in Fatima Mahaji. She is a social media. She does social media ads, Facebook for brick and mortar businesses, and she actually told me that when she finished university as a journalist, she was employed straight into the Labor Labor government's party, Labor government's team for Tony Blair, and they invested quite a lot in PR at the time as well. And not only that, but they really worked on making sure their messaging was right too. And I love hearing that because a lot of people are comparing the way Andy Burnham is doing it to the way Tony Blair did because he was very similar. Tony Blair had a lot of charisma in the way he delivered and talked to people and etc. Whatever you think of him now, because I have I have thoughts, but whatever you think about that, the investment was made there in PR, which at the time 2030 years ago, that is where you people were. People were reading the papers. People were consuming, you know, information in that way. That is what they focused on. So similarly, I'm seeing this from this government are really interested in getting the messaging right. They're investing, which is the biggest thing because a lot of companies, so many companies, do not invest in their comms or social media. In fact, you'll you'll notice a trend in the last couple of years. I think it's changing again, but in the last couple of years after COVID, huge amount of marketers were unemployed because funding was the thinking was let's invest in sales and. Let's cut marketing. That's what I saw a lot of. So to see this trend changing, and I think this is going to change the trend, not just for government, but for businesses going forward, is to see more investment in comms in social media and that sort of thing, which I think is a very good place to be.
Ayo Abbas 55:15
Absolutely, until we get a minute. So I'm like, yeah, that works. If anyone has any more questions that they want to put that we haven't covered, I think we covered a hell of a lot of ground. Please do put them in the chat, and we'll answer them now. Finally, I'll just say where you can find us. Where can where can people find you?
Jaysica Marvell 55:34
jaysica.com, which is where you can find me, and you'll find all of my social media because I do have social media accounts for my counselor work and for my marketing business, but you can find me on TikTok talking about how what I actually do as a counselor and my comments as a social media consultant as well.
Ayo Abbas 55:51
And you, Alex?
Speaker 8 55:53
Alex McCann on LinkedIn or Altrincham HQ across every other social media platform.
Ayo Abbas 55:58
Okay, fantastic! Thank you so much for listening in and for being amazing guests. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to the Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes, which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on AbbasMarketing.com. And of course, if you like the show, please do share it with others on social, as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
