Ep 31: Marketing models: Consultants, Freelancers & Independents with Julia Nicholls and Dominique Staindl
Have you considered hiring a consultant or freelancer to get your built environment marketing done? Then this is the episode for you.
My guests are Julia Nicholls and Dominque Staindl who talk about their work as communications consultants. We look at:
· how the consultant/freelancer model works
· how to find the right consultant for you
· how to clarify what you want: strategy, strategy and implementation or just implementation
· how consultants can being a fresh communications perspectives
Marketing In Times of Recovery is the built environment marketing podcast and this is the second part of my marketing models mini-series which looks at different ways to get your marketing done. You can listen to episode 1 here which looks at group and online programmes.
Marketing In Times of Recovery is hosted by built environment marketing consultant, Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. Sign up for my monthly roundup here for the latest built environment marketing news
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Resources
Abbas Marketing
Julia Nicholls
Dominique Staindl
Transcript.
Ayo Abbas 00:04
Hello, and welcome to Marketing in Times of Recovery, the built environment marketing podcast. And I'm your host Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. This is the second episode of my marketing models mini series, aka, there are many other ways that you can get your marketing done. This episode looks at consultants and independents. It's a model I know well as I'm one of them. And my guests today are the lovely Julia Nicholls and Dominique Staindl. As well as looking at the consultancy model and how that works, some of our key takeaways from our conversation include how clients really need to talk to their consultants find out more about their areas of expertise, and also how they work and whether or not how they work actually works for you. And also you need to consider is it strategy you need? Is it strategy and implementation? Or is it just a case of tactics you just want someone to implement all together? Working with a consultant can really bring new perspectives to your practice. Let's head over and check out the episode. Enjoy. Hi, Dom. Hi, Julia. Thanks so much for coming on this show. So firstly, Julia, can you introduce yourself who you are and where you come from?
Julia Nicholls 01:18
I'm Julia Nicholls. I have a consultancy called the imaginatively named Julia Nicholls Communications. I'm a strategic consultant. So I work with architects to understand their business goals, their purpose and their culture before creating a set of recommendations based on how they can best reach their audiences and stand out from the crowd.
Ayo Abbas 01:41
So Dom, can you introduce yourself, please?
Dominique Staindl 01:44
Sure, I'm Dominique Staindl. I'm a communications consultant freelancer and have been for about a year. I don't have a name. And I don't have a website, and I don't have an up to date LinkedIn profile. So this is new for me. And this is me really having to practice what I preach. So you're gonna get me all sorted out.
Ayo Abbas 02:12
I'm sure you will have a LinkedIn profile done when this goes out, won't you, Dom? So anyway, so firstly, I guess I want to talk about this whole series is about showing different ways that practices and firms can actually get their marketing done. So I really, really wanted bring out some of the stories of some of the different ways that I know that people work with firms. So how do you work with a practice? Julia? How does it work for you normally?
Julia Nicholls 02:38
Well, I guess it's a it's a very collaborative process. I work closely with architects, every practice is coming with its own challenges and opportunities. So there's always a bespoke response. And I work with practices for between five and 10 weeks, initially running a workshop with practice directors, or perhaps anyone else supporting on new business comms and marketing, and really try to get under the skin of their approach and what they're aiming for as a business. It's something that often people haven't considered for a while, maybe when they started up, but I think it's good to do it every three to four years to really recalibrate what you're aiming for and work out why perhaps have been shifts in the market, or you've evolved some specialisms, or some experience that you need to then consider. So we do a starter workshop where we really explore the business vision and the culture and the values of the practice. We might look at people within the practice the figureheads, perhaps there's an issue of succession or creating profiles for new management staff who've been promoted. We look at their clients, collaborators, competitors, peers, and all this kind of information helps me to look at where they want to be, and what kind of communication style is going to resonate with them and their audiences, and understand what their overarching purposes. And then I go away and research all of that and come back with a summary workshop to report my findings.
Ayo Abbas 04:06
Wow, it's very comprehensive. Now, it's a lovely model. How long did it take you to build that model? Julia? Well, how did it develop? Or is it something you had in your toolkit?
Julia Nicholls 04:18
I was director of PR at Squire & Partners for 20 years. And so I guess I had an understanding of what you would need to think about to create a strategy but working as a consultant, I've only been doing a year. So I evolved a process which I've been tinkering with over over the last year, probably more adding bits on and working out what works for different practices. Yeah, but essentially, I've worked out that what they need from me is a real strategic framework of how they can stand out how to reach their audiences best what tools they need to use, because they don't necessarily need to use all of them, and how to make the best use of often limited resources, so that their time is being used most efficiently and most effectively and with the most impact.
Ayo Abbas 05:11
Fantastic. Thank you. So Dom, how do you tend to work with your clients? How do things work on your side?
Dominique Staindl 05:17
Well, this is really interesting, because for the last 12 months, I've just blindly gone along, assuming that everyone else is doing the same thing as me. And of course, this is exactly why we need these kinds of podcasts because no one's doing the same thing.
Ayo Abbas 05:29
No we're not.
Dominique Staindl 05:30
Exactly. So I actually work a little differently. And I suppose that probably it's a bit of a hangover, from my experience in agency life, that I work on retainers. So basically, I've had clients ongoing for the last sort of year or so and so I continue with them, it's more of a growth strategy. So I'm implementing as well as delivering strategy and working with them quite closely, I might be recruiting I might be structuring internally, so that systems are set up so that they can actually produce communications, produce content, start to build the profiles, get an understanding of who they should be putting forward, etc. And I sort of treat that as a monthly retainer, and we do it on an estimate per month. And if it works out that it's happening that long, then that's great. And we make the most efficient and effective use of that time. So, completely different system to Julia, and actually, much more ad hoc in a way that I have respond very much to industry shifts, almost at an hourly basis. And I go back to them, and I sort of suggest, do you want to respond to this in the media? Or what are we doing about that? And is that something that we can take forward? We've got a strategy at the start of the year. But, of course, a million things happen between January and December. So we work on a really almost hourly, half daily basis, as well, I'm in touch with them quite often throughout the year. And it's very much I'm an ingrained part of their core team. So that's how I operate predominantly.
Ayo Abbas 07:15
I'd like to say it was planned that you both work in completely different ways. But it wasn't.
Dominique Staindl 07:19
I just thought what a piece of genius, well done Ayo!
Ayo Abbas 07:24
Planned by me, I knew this. No, I didn't. In terms of working with a consultant or an independent freelancer, which are all kind of interrelated terms, what do you see is the benefits of that Dom?
Dominique Staindl 07:40
The benefits are that actually, I think our work a lot more, you sort of get to sit between someone who's embedded internally and someone who's in an agency life. So that's how I see it, because of course, I've done those two other roles. So I hit as the happy medium in between. Someone who's internal, so a communications manager is attending loads of internal meetings, they're sometimes bogged down in the daily grind, and also the inevitable politics, etc. And then someone who's agency is quite removed from all of that, and only just dipping in to the bits that matter that they can externalise really quickly. And what I'm noticing with my role and how it's worked over the last year or so is that I'm going in maybe once a week even, or with some I'm not, but some I am. And so I get a sense of how they're operating internally. But also I maintain a one step removed, just so that I have my finger on the pulse in the outside world and make sure that I'm connecting the dots externally so that I can bring those opportunities back in. So I it as a really happy medium.
Ayo Abbas 08:56
And how do you see that? Julia? How do you see the benefits for working with you as a consultant in a project, immersive type way?
Julia Nicholls 09:04
So for me, having a really considered strategy, having been through that in-depth process is going to save you time, energy and money because you know who you're talking to, what you want to say, and why. And I think once you've got that strategy, you can then use that as a briefing for either current or incoming staff who don't necessarily have experience in communications. So often in small practices, someone will hire a studio manager, or someone in leadership will be told you're looking after comms. They don't necessarily have that background. And I think to have a kind of working document that they can regularly refer back to, and use to measure success when you're struggling to remember, why am I doing this again? What's the purpose and the rationale? Yeah, like, you're not just filling up an Instagram feed, you're actually doing it purposefully with measurable results. And I think that perhaps what my process does is it's a short term investment for a long term game. The strategy should be good for a few years. And I think as Dom knows in agency lives that, say three and a half to five grand is probably an estimate of what you would spend over the time within my process that could be gobbled up with an agency within two or three months. But without that benefit of a really thoroughly researched strategy that's particular to your business. So I think that's the overall benefit is that really deep understanding of your practice. I think as Dom works perhaps a bit more nimbly in terms of week by week, things are changing. And I think that is really useful, I do tend to keep in contact with all of my strategy clients. So sometimes we'll have just regular check in meetings, perhaps quarterly to review progress, look at upcoming projects or opportunities. Sometimes I'll help them to upskill in-house staff, or support them to grow in-house team. So there is a continuing relationship, but the bulk of the work happens within a couple of months.
Ayo Abbas 11:06
Fantastic. And are there any drawbacks of working with consultants and independents such as ourselves?
Dominique Staindl 11:13
We're perfect.
Ayo Abbas 11:16
Dude, I know I'm not.
Julia Nicholls 11:23
I think with any model, there is no one-stop communications solutions. So my strategy is not something that you can just hand over to me, and I'm going to do it all for you. But to be honest, neither is somebody in-house, neither is an agency, the content always has to come from the people in the organisation doing the work; the people on the ground being creative and innovative. What I think they do get from this process is a manageable plan that takes into account resources and time. But the best communications will always be enabled and supported from the top because the content needs to feel part of the business and culture, and then when you have a meeting with somebody from your studio, you want it to feel like the voice that they've engaged with on Instagram and LinkedIn and in media articles, so it has to come from you, still. So it's not that kind of one-stop approach where you work with either of us, and we just do everything for you.
Ayo Abbas 12:22
Do you find that people come and ask you for that? Have you had people come and ask go 'Can you just give me one of those?' or not?
Julia Nicholls 12:31
People are looking for an easy fix that they're looking for somebody to take the problem away from them, and it's really not as simple as that. Actually, I met someone recently at an event and she said that she lets a relatively new part two student take full control of their social media, without any guidelines at all on content or purpose. And I'm really troubled by that. They were talking about emojis. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, yeah.
Ayo Abbas 13:05
Oh, my gosh. Dom, are there any drawbacks that you can see apart from getting a part two to take control of your whole social media?
Dominique Staindl 13:17
Well first of all, my first piece of advice would be, 'Stop!'. Get a strategy together, brief them. So, Julia's covered up beautifully in what she said, and I think that you could be looking at it from either angle. You could be saying, 'Are there any drawbacks for the client?' Well, Julia's covered that you don't get everything you need from whichever model, you need to accept that each model has its advantages and drawbacks. I would say from a freelance perspective, there's some challenges with that, having come from internal and having come from agency is that suddenly you're very alone, and so there's that element of just going, Okay, well, I need to be really proactive about being in touch with people, about staying alert, having my finger on the pulse, all of those channels that was such a given in previous teams an agency life or all those water cooler conversations or whatever's happening, even just meetings. You're just absorbing so much information and you don't have that opportunity as a singular consultant. So you've just got to be really alert and aware that you have to be on that as well as talking to your clients and doing deep thinking and then thinking strategically and high level. So you are operating at many different levels. And you're spreading yourself as thin as possible, in as many places as possible as well. So that's a challenge from a singular perspective. But for clients, I think, I think we're a brilliant, happy medium, I'm just gonna keep saying that.
Ayo Abbas 15:18
In terms of sex, success stories, don't wanna say sex stories that's wrong. That's wrong. I'm gonna edit out!
Dominique Staindl 15:30
The podcasters are gonna take it down!
Julia Nicholls 15:33
I didn't make any notes on that!
Ayo Abbas 15:34
So in terms of...I can't say it! Right, ok, I can do this.
Dominique Staindl 15:54
We'll let you record again.
Ayo Abbas 15:56
Okay. In terms of success stories, where do you feel that how you work has worked really well? Have you got some examples, Dom?
Dominique Staindl 16:07
So, without giving too much away, it's been really nice when there's a bit of an, I'm going to go into jargony language here, but there's a bit of a cross pollination. And this happens in agency as well, where basically you learn about something through one avenue, and you can basically hit that across all your clients, and suddenly, all the others who didn't know about it are really delighted. And then you can do the same for the for the people who gave you that initial opportunity. So there's a lot of that that's really exciting for me is when you can draw loads of industry information from one avenue and just spread it across other clients' channels and all of that.
Ayo Abbas 16:51
Cross pollination, that's the word that keeps coming to my head. But yeah, that kind of thing, isn't it?
Dominique Staindl 16:56
Yeah, exactly. And just being able to share intel and recommend it. When you've got people, and I think this is really important, as well as operating in a certain level of clientele. So making sure that your clients are the kinds of people you want to be promoting. So making sure that the information that's relevant for one is likely to be relevant for others, because they care about certain values, or certain delivery standards, or whatever it is that you're after. So that's when it gets really exciting for me, because that means you're building a little ecosystem. And yeah, that's really exciting.
Ayo Abbas 17:38
Fantastic. And Julia, have you got a success story?
Julia Nicholls 17:51
Please, don't cut this out. In. Well, I completely agree with Dom in that working with lots of different clients gives you really useful content for everybody. And actually, from working in one practice for over 20 years to then working with 10 in one year, I've learned so much, I've had so much more to impart because of all of those different experiences and the way different practices work. I think, a couple of examples, again, keeping client confidentiality in mind. But one studio I worked with was being stretched too thin, really, they were trying to do everything, they needed to really recalibrate and ensure that they were focusing their limited time and effort on the audiences that were most important to them, and where they wanted to grow their business. So we worked together, we established a voice for them that had a really distinct character, we created a timeline for communication, so it didn't feel overwhelming to them. And we agreed some core messages that would be a thread in their work and would connect them with the type of clients they wanted to work with. And seeing them since and, you know, we have check ins, they've said, it's really transformed, not just their communications, but the way they run their business, because they have a much clearer focus of where to invest their energy, and also importantly, when to say no to things that are not on their path, and just don't waste your time there. So that's been really nice feedback. And another one was quite an established practice that had a mismatch in their internal and external perceptions. They were, you know, really lovely people. And they were quite modest about their skills and experience and about actually a really enviable, enviable position they created in the industry. And some of the things that were really important in-house that were key drivers in their work and really had built a really strong staff loyalty and were also valued by clients weren't visible outside the organisation. So we worked hard to make that part of their narrative and share more of their culture through engaging content. And also to feel confident in doing your own communications. I was speaking recently to Celeste Bolt, another communications consultant, and we were saying, actually doing your own communications is really hard, especially as one person, because you literally just sound like you're blowing your own trumpet. But there's ways of doing it, which are useful to people and help people with their own problems. So, it's hard to take that advice on board yourself, but we have to do it and there are ways.
Ayo Abbas 20:36
Okay, so Julia? So how do you get the most out of working with a consultant? What's the best things? What would you say to someone who's thinking about embarking on this?
Julia Nicholls 20:45
I think being invested in the process. So, we understand that you're short of time. But if you don't give the workshops or the process your full time and attention, you're not going to get the most out of it. The workshops I run a probably a few hours each, and sometimes when I say, oh, you know, can we strike out half a day or two thirds of a day, I could see the directors like bulking, but they're really essential in understanding your company and your goals to outline the strategy that has the right kind of impact. And secondly, I would say, a client perception audit is part of my process for any practice that's over three years, two or three years. And that's interviewing clients, also, maybe collaborators, sometimes the media about identifying what you're recognised for, the value that you bring, where you are on keeping up with the competition. I'm not just asking clients to say nice things about you. Although that's always good. It's also really useful information on how you're perceived and whether your current comms are hitting the mark or not. And you can also really pick their brains about what their challenges are, what their future pipeline of work looks like, you can pick up some quotes that you can use for future content. So I think just being really invested in the process. And going for the client perception audit, because sometimes what you think you're known for is not actually what other people think.
Ayo Abbas 22:20
Are people hesitant of when you suggest that option?
Julia Nicholls 22:23
Yes, sometimes, and often they will put forward a client who they just have a really good long running relationship with, and I might push them a bit harder then to say, well give me one of those but I also want one who's maybe never given you a job, but has had several meetings with you, or a collaborator that you've worked with once on quite a tricky project. Other people will give lots of different bits of information. And it's always really valuable. It's the unexpected bits that are the most valuable.
Ayo Abbas 22:53
It's definitely that. And in terms of how you work Dom, in terms of how would people get the most out of working with the way that you work?
Dominique Staindl 23:00
I just want to say thank you to Julia for saying that, because there is no point in having comms if you're not going to feed into it. And the whole point of us, and what we do is to enhance your business decisions, you've got to have a business plan, you've got to have an audience in mind, you've got to have sectors you want to work with, or a calibre of how you want to work or where you want to work. Otherwise, we're just guessing. With some of the clients I work with, I do just guess, based on they're like, listen, just do it, and we'll come to you with a business plan. And I'm like, okay, because I can do that, and that's fine, sort of self autonomous, and the practice and studio itself is just rolling along. So it's great. But I was gonna say, for me, is work with someone you can build a relationship with, because there's so much efficiency with that, instead of writing accountability, covering emails, you can pick up the phone and have a really great friendly chat on a Monday morning and just bash out a few things that need clearing, and then you've got the week and you can just absolutely hit all these things you want to get done for them. It's just, I feel like I've got a really great working relationship with my clients. And it brings me a lot of joy. It gives me a sense of purpose and a great reason to get up in the morning because I actively want to do good things for them. And it just gives longevity to the whole experience and it makes it fun. I said to my parents recently, when I saw them over Christmas, I'm just gonna keep doing it until it's not fun anymore. And so that's my mantra. I think I might take that out into life. I sort of think that could spread. But yeah, just make sure you've got that connection because, especially if it's longer term, it's just so critical. And you want to enjoy, these practices and these studio directors and managers want to enjoy their day as well. And they don't want to be telling you off or doing any of that sort of nastier side of stuff. And you need to get two resolutions together. And you're not always going to agree. And that's actually even more fun. Because then you have to work harder to get rationale and reasoning, and then stick with your convictions or go, Okay, fine, and leave it and then move on, and then reintroduce the idea a year later when they're ready.
Ayo Abbas 25:38
And they'll say it's their idea!
Dominique Staindl 25:42
Exactly. Yeah, and then they'll probably say, Yeah, what a great idea that was my idea, wasn't it? And you go, yeah, absolutely. It was.
Ayo Abbas 25:50
I've got a question. So are business is always ready for marketing? This is a question I actually do have in my head quite often. Because sometimes, I'm like, when you just said about having your business strategy in place, your goals, your growth - a lot of people don't have that. So are business is always ready for marketing?
Dominique Staindl 26:08
In theory, every business could do with marketing. But not every business will effectively use marketing.
Ayo Abbas 26:16
Okay, you got an opinion on that one Julia?
Julia Nicholls 26:19
I think I'm always surprised at how a lot of organisations have not really thought hard about the end goal. They're kind of looking two feet ahead, not a mile ahead. And I think having that goal, so maybe it's to increase the visiting inquiries, because it's harder to convert them these days, you need more of them. Perhaps it's to shift industry perceptions of your studio or gain recognition for a particular aspect of your work. I think that those kind of goals are going to give you and your communications, however you're engaged with communications, a purpose. And, like Dom said, it's fun to see how you're making steps towards those goals. Yeah. And I think that obviously, everybody needs to market. I mean, for me, if you're not marketing or communicating with a strategy, then almost sometimes it's better not to do it at all, because you're literally spending time doing something purposeless-ly, if that's a word. It is now.
Ayo Abbas 27:36
That's fine. We do that.
Dominique Staindl 27:39
Can I ask a question? How do we view marketing? Because I say in communications, and I see marketing as a component of that, I see so many things. I see communications is the umbrella term. And then there's like PR, social media, marketing, internal comms and brand management under that. But do you guys see it the same way?
Ayo Abbas 27:59
Mine's different. I see it I guess because I'm a marketer. I always come to serve as a marketer, rather than a comms person or if anything I say I'm a marketing communications person. But for me, I guess it's anything to do with clients I class that as marketing. And it's a large brush. But that's how I see it, and then pulling comms and lots of other stuff underneath it. But that's the other thing. There's a lot of definitions, isn't there?
Julia Nicholls 28:25
I think I'm probably more aligned with what Dominique just said in terms of, I think comms is the umbrella term. Marketing is something specifically to get new business in, it's the outcome is to get a project from it, or to start engaging with the client. But yes, I think as well, like marketing, particularly in architecture seems to be quite a dirty word. Like people don't want to get their hands dirty and do it. And so I almost use communications. Like I think communications is intrinsically tied to marketing, the two things should not be separate.
Ayo Abbas 29:03
But you stay away from the word.
Julia Nicholls 29:04
Yeah, communications is more welcomed, because it's broader. And yeah, but they're all essentially for me to be aimed at your target audiences, which is mostly your clients so it's not other architects which is obviously the classic architect speaking to architects but it's all got to be client-facing and speaking to them.
Ayo Abbas 29:30
Looks like I need to change the name of this podcast.
Dominique Staindl 29:38
I was just sitting at my laptop, 20 minutes before logging on here and I thought, What's the difference between PR and marketing I better Google that before I jump onto this podcast.
Ayo Abbas 29:48
It's so interesting, isn't it but everyone takes a different take and I think the other thing is that we've all got different flavours that we bring to the table anyway like even just talking about what you work, but also our skill sets. It's so different. And I think in some ways, I think, you know, when we were talking about that question about how to choose who you're working with, it's actually understanding what you need. That's got to come into it. Because what we all offer is slightly different. I like writing I like, there are different things that we all bring to the table. I'm into podcasting, and all crazy stuff. I also think there is that flavour as well as actually, what do you need from a consultant has to be on your questions, of what it is you need to move your business forward as well.
Dominique Staindl 30:32
Exactly. There was something I really wanted to get across. And that's: a lot of clients who talk to me about potentially working together, don't actually recognise what they need. So I could probably do a half an hour recce and go, I think there's some serious gaps here, here and here. And they're saying, oh, we need more social media, and I'm going no, you need business development. My one takeaway, if there's anyone in a practice listening to this, would be to ask the consultant, what they think you need, because actually, they're probably going to have a much better understanding of how to address your needs as a business, than you may think. You might think you need social media, it's possibly the last thing you need, what you probably need is internal structures that then lead to better business development that then you can crow about on social media. There are different ways of approaching these things and I'd recommend always listening to your consultant.
Julia Nicholls 31:42
And I think going to the consultant with the end goal, not with what you think you need to get there, because it's our job to work out how you can get to the end goal, and I think that filling up your social media, if it's not the social media that your audiences are engaged with, is just a waste of time. So, I think that that's where you've just got to be focused on the end goal and at least listen to our recommendations, even if you don't decide to take them on.
Ayo Abbas 32:09
Okay, so on to the final question for this, it's what things should practices consider when looking to hire a consultant? Are the three things that people should do? Julia, do you want to kick-off?
Julia Nicholls 32:20
Well, I think I'd agree with Dom, that you need to speak to a few people to find someone that you feel comfortable working closely with. It's a fairly in-depth process, there's potentially some uncomfortable truths along the way. So I think you've got to be able to work with somebody that you have a rapport with. Again, I would say think hard about the end goal. So that probably is going to take you some time outside of the sessions to really think with your fellow directors or partners, about what you're actually aiming for as a business. And then I think maybe just accept that you're going to have to be honest. This process requires you to reveal your warts and all to make the best recommendations. So you need to slightly be open to baring your studio, so that you get the most out of the process.
Ayo Abbas 33:20
So Dom, what kind of thing should people be looking at when working with consultants to finish off?
Dominique Staindl 33:25
I think we've already touched it, I think it's, you're buying a personality, and you're buying someone's experience. So think about how you want to work with that person as well. As Julia mentioned before, if you haven't got time to invest, get someone who's super autonomous and can just run away with really good ideas, do a light touch check in and keep going. If you're a control freak, then work with someone who will sit down with you and go through every detail meticulously. Pick something that works for your business, your business is likely a reflection of your personality anyway, so get someone who suits that. And that is all in the interview process. And that's the whole purpose of those things. Someone might have a really great idea. But if you don't like them, you're not going to want to work with them for the next six weeks or a year or whatever it is. So just use your gut.
Ayo Abbas 34:21
Use your gut - we'll finish on that. Thank you so much for coming onto the show, Julia and Dom. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed it
Dominique Staindl 34:30
My first podcast, woohoo!
Ayo Abbas 34:39
Thanks so much for listening to the latest episode of Marketing in Times of Recovery, and I'm your host Ayo Abbas. If you want to find out more about the bi weekly show do check out the show notes which will give you more information about who the guests are and all the things we've covered. And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, make sure you hit the subscribe button so you don't miss out on an episode. Until next time, bye.
