Ep 39: Podcasting - a route to grow your business with Emma Drake
The growth in podcast listening in the UK is due to grow to 28 million listeners by 2026. If you fancy getting a piece of the podcasting pie for your business do check out my podcast interview with Comms Consultant Emma Drake where we talk about podcasting for growth.
We cover a lot of ground including:
What to think about when picking a topic and format for your podcast
Why starting off as a guest is a good way to get to know the podcasting ropes
How to pitch successfully to secure podcast guest interviews
What to think about when choosing a podcast host
How to register your podcast
Tools to get started and to help manage your podcast
·The pitfalls of ‘free’ tools and what to look out for
The Built Environment Marketing Show is the new name for Marketing In Times of Recovery cos who wants a podcast name tied to the state of the UK economy.
And don’t worry it’s still hosted by marketing consultant Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. The consultancy bridges the gap between business strategy and tactical marketing for engineers and architects. Sign up for my monthly roundup here for the latest built environment marketing news
Ways you can support this show
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Your support is much appreciated and helps more people to get to hear our interviews
Resources
Abbas Marketing
Henbe Communications
Communications Strategy That Works
SpeakPipe
Memo.fm
Podfollow
Zencastr
Libsyn
Buzzsprout
Garageband
Audacity
Transcript.
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello again, it's me Ayo. And I just wanted to say a few words before we get to the show proper celebration of changing the name of my podcast to The Built Environment Marketing Show. I'm going live to record five episodes on LinkedIn to kick off the season. There's gonna be questions from the floor and everything, which is a nice addition to the actual interviews themselves, too. And now, let's get on with the show, which is an interview with Emma Drake. Enjoy. Hello, and welcome to The Built Environment Marketing Show live here on LinkedIn. And It's day four of me celebrating the name change of my podcast as you do. I'm your host, Ira vas, and I am founder and director of advanced marketing. And if you're joining us live, I'm always gonna ask you an icebreaker question. Today's one is, tell us what's the last podcast you listen to. And if you could just write it in the comments. It just tells me that actually, we're live and people can hear us, but also I find it quite interesting. So I'll start first. Actually, just before this, I was listening to a podcast with Clemmie Telford interviewing Dr. Alex about mental health and kids, which was really interesting, because he's got a new book out, and he's doing a huge campaign to raise £200 million to set up some mental health centres across the country, which is really good. That's podcast I was listening to what's the last one you listen to Emma?
Emma Drake 01:22
Oh, gosh, I think it was propelled swimming. And it was about parents of swimmers.
Ayo Abbas 01:31
And she's a swimmer. This is what we listen to that. So it's asking a really good question. So yeah, if anyone's live and listening, I'd love to know what podcast you've watched the last one you listen to, and if it's mine, bonus points. So, do you want to give a brief intro to you in a second because I forgot to say today we are talking about podcasting and route to grow your business. And of course, my guest is Emma Drake, who is a fellow podcaster just like me and Emma do you wanna do a brief intro a to you and what you do.
Emma Drake 02:05
Yeah. Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in for tuning in live today. And hello to everyone listening out there. I'm Emma. I'm a built environment, communication consultant, and also host of the podcast Communications Strategy That Works. I've been podcasting for nearly two years now. And I've learned a lot. And I'm really looking forward to chatting more about podcasting today. I probably could talk about it for more than half an hour. But it's gonna keep me in check. So,
Ayo Abbas 02:37
so yeah, we've already had this conversation. So, does podcasting work to grow your business as our first question Emma, Go?
Emma Drake 02:44
Well, thanks for inviting me on, I'm really happy to be here. And today, we're talking really about, we talked about this a bit beforehand, but external audio podcasts for your business that can help you grow your business. And yes, in that context, they are an excellent way to help you grow your business. And I think there's a number of reasons for that. And I'm sure you'll chip in as well, I bet. There's a slice of the pie for everyone, actually. And we'll deep dive on some of these but podcasts are so niche, you can develop audio on a product, design a concept, a way of doing something, you can gather opinions, you can challenge perceptions, you can produce one on any topic, really. So they're a great way of engaging people in whatever it is that you do. And because they're hosting platforms, the way they work, content is pushed to people to huge search engines, in fact, so, when else would your content feature on iTunes? Or? Yeah, and
Ayo Abbas 03:43
that's always quite nice to see. Or, like, I always find, like, if I show my son oh look, when he's looking at the iPad, and I'm like, oh, did you see how that was? And he goes, Mr. Tumble!! No, it was me. Thank you, it's not Mr. Tumble, that was me. I saw on the iPad,
Emma Drake 03:58
in the car, because it's on there on Spotify. It really freaks them out actually. We're not cool by any stretch of the imagination in their eyes. Okay, okay. Yeah. So, so yeah, I mean, that it's, they are such a great way. I think, I think, you know, from a sort of, it's rooted in more than that, though. I think there are some stats that back that up, podcast listens are up, aren't they? We know this, they sort of plateaued a bit around 2020 and I think people thought well, was this the end of podcasting, but actually, they're predicted to grow by another 10 million, up to 2026. And they're more popular with young people. I think the Literary Trust, did a study of 11 to 18 year olds and as well as helping them engage better, they can do other tasks while they're listening so they can do their homework. They can listen to podcasts, and it makes them feel, some case made them feel less anxious and sad about doing things just by having someone to tune into so I think that's a really interesting stat depending on who your audience is. But like I said, you know, you can carve out your niche, can't you. And unlike blogs where you have to know where they are, you have to go find them, you have to do a lot promotion and rely on the links being found. People are actively looking for podcasts, and there's huge platforms waiting to help you.
Ayo Abbas 05:22
Yeah, I think, like you said about websites and blogs, I think there's also like thing of, there is a lot more opportunity to still make your mark, and I think blogs, blogs and websites, you know, there's literally hundreds of millions of them out there. And it's just, you know, they're kind of saturated markets in a way. And this isn't unsettling. It's not a saturated channel at all, I think it's like, it's a 2 million podcasts, active podcast on Apple, for example, that's not a huge amount, you know, it's 2 million podcasts on Apple of which 750,000 actives are active means they're still releasing episodes. And you think that's not a huge amount. So there's the opportunities are there for you to carve your own area, and, you know, 100, people listening to your podcast for half an hour, is not something to be sniffed at, you know, and that's kind of it and you sort of sit there and go, if someone if you could have people listening to you for that long, in an event or in a room, you'd be really happy with. Thinking of it in that way, suddenly, like, I don't need to have millions of listeners or whatever it's like, actually, for my niche podcast, having 100 listeners who are engaged is great. And you know, I think it's there for you. And I think the other thing is, it's a good way for you to share your story in your own way. And I think there's this huge thing right now of, you know, let's be honest, the media is, is dying a death, if you pick up any industry magazine, now there's so much thinner than they ever used to be. True. Magazine, you're like, What is this? And I think that's the thing is like, actually, that kind of publishing isn't really happening, it doesn't have as much impact anymore. And actually you can, you can share your story, your expertise, and who you are, and who your business is, in your own way. And in your own words, I don't think that's a lovely part of podcasting. And I think there is also anything you have, in terms of growing a business you can get guests on, or things like that, who you want to showcase or be associated with as well, and start to build relationships. And that's another area for growth for you and your business as well. Absolutely love.
Emma Drake 07:24
I mean, it's not just smaller businesses, I think bigger businesses as well, there's still an opportunity there. Because you might want to focus that podcast on recruitment. And that's about, maybe there's stories about your company organisation, or maybe there's a really big topic, like sustainability strategies, or particular, you know, if you're in a major construction project, there might be elements of that, that would actually be really useful to share as audio as a podcast, because it's an easier listen, take more in don't we, really,
Ayo Abbas 07:56
but even on recruitment, you're like, if you're trying to get graduates on board, why not a create of podcasts about some of your graduates. A day in the life, this is what we do, how I got into it. And, and that's the kind of thing where you can create really interesting content, audio stories, lots of different stuff that, I guess it's a different way of bringing your business to life on what you do. And I think that's, that, for me, is where you can kind of,
Emma Drake 08:19
I've certainly found that as well, personally, you know, I would never have sat and written 100 blogs, you know, or, you know, four blogs a month, I just couldn't have done that. It just wasn't something that I could do. But talking, speaking into a microphone, man is a really good way of getting all of that stuff out of your head and down. And on and on to you know, it can be onto paper, I'm sure we'll come on to that and ways to use the audio. But but you know, it's a really cathartic way to to generate one sense as well.
Ayo Abbas 08:59
Anybody that actually says. So, in terms of podcasting, what is the best way to get started, in your opinion?
Emma Drake 09:08
there are lots of practical things you can do. I think there are lots of technical things I could talk about. But actually, let's assume you're doing this for yourself, and you want to keep the costs down. So my first tip would be, you need to record your voice and you need to listen to it. And the reason you need to do that is because it sounds very, very different the first time you do it.
Ayo Abbas 09:32
do I really sound like that. Yeah,
Emma Drake 09:34
it sounds different. And the reason is because we're used to listening to our voice through our heads when we're talking not back through a microphone, so it's very, very different. So I would I would definitely suggest you do something like practice. So if you've got a Mac you could use GarageBand you could use your iPhone, just record your voice, play it back, read out a Christmas carol sing it, you know read out a poem. It doesn't have to be anything particularly interesting, but just to get into that process of recording and listening back to your voice? My biggest block for starting was that I sat in front of the microphone once I started that was it, word vomit? Exactly. So yeah, keeping it simple on recording use GarageBand on my Mac, I still use GarageBand on my Mac.
Ayo Abbas 10:28
I tried to edit an episode myself the other day. I think it was two and a half minutes took me two friggin hours and that's how awful I am at editing
Emma Drake 10:38
That's a really bad advert for Garageband
Ayo Abbas 10:42
Well, that's why I just send it to my editor.
Emma Drake 10:45
I would take me 10 to 12 minutes to record an episode. Depending if it's one of my episodes, it will take me less than 30 minutes to edit the episode.
Ayo Abbas 10:55
Yeah that's not me. It will take me wait way longer. I record my intros on GarageBand. And that took me long enough because I'm rubbish at it. And then I just send them to my editor to put it together. Because I can't be doing lots of different ways of doing.
Emma Drake 11:15
I mean, you can add the bells and whistles on later on. You know, you can have
Ayo Abbas 11:19
there were no bells and whistles. So it's just trying to make it sound normal. What's going on?
Emma Drake 11:25
It's an Android user, though, aren't you? This is a Mac, you don't like
Ayo Abbas 11:31
I've got a MacBook I work on a Mac, MacBook Pro Day in day out. But GarageBand I just don't like I tried to Descript the other week as well.
Emma Drake 11:40
audacity. That's not free, though.
Ayo Abbas 11:44
I found that like, I don't know, I don't like editing software. That's what I'd come up with. I'll just pay someone Emma.
Emma Drake 11:53
I would like listeners to think that it is easy.
Ayo Abbas 11:55
It is you're not me.
Emma Drake 11:57
If you're not. You know how I found it simple once I knew which buttons to press. It's the same process. It's a process is over and over that you're not doing anything any differently each time. And I overlay my intro and outro. So all I'm doing is doing each episode. Yeah, outsourcing it, but it's on I outsource other parts of my podcasting process. We'll come on to that. But that bid I could do so quickly. It was one of those.
Ayo Abbas 12:27
And I think that you've got a good point there, it's actually choosing the bits that you enjoy doing. And you're good at I am not good at editing. Whereas you know what I mean? So it's like, there's other, I have other skills.
Emma Drake 12:38
You have great content to promote your podcast. So you know, that's unsurprisingly, that's, you know, a lot
Ayo Abbas 12:43
that's what I focus on. So in terms of me in what I think about getting started, I just think listen to a lot of podcasts, because that's how you learn what you like, what you don't like what works, you know, you can listen. And also, I think, listen quite intently into not just what they're saying, but how they're saying it, how things are structured, and like what formats they're using. What's their intro? What's their outro? So I actually you break it down. And I think that gives you then you can then you start to build on. This is a structure that this podcast follows. Do I like this, What elements do I like? And then you can start to think about how you'd build your own. And I think actually listening to podcasts is probably a really good way of doing that. And then you've just got to get an understanding of what it is what's out there. So for me, I think getting started that is kind of one of the key things is actually go out and listen to some and just understand how they're structured and how they work. And yeah, and I think if you're gonna get started as well, I think one of the things is can you go out? And yeah, I think I think doing that throwing my key one is go out and listen to some and break them down.
Emma Drake 13:45
really good question because I knew I didn't want to, I couldn't get through long episodes myself. So I deliberately choose to do that format. And I wanted to create really right from the start really snackable easy content, that would be a back catalogue of sort of you could binge it like a Netflix boxset kind of saturation. And actually I do get from my downloads, I would say about half come from back catalogue. Every month,
Ayo Abbas 14:09
I get that weird bingeing thing, when you can see someone's definitely just gone through a long time and gone through loads of episodes.
Emma Drake 14:17
That means you're producing something that people really like.
Ayo Abbas 14:20
Yeah, it does. Yeah, and like you said, if you like snackable ones, that's absolutely fine. You know, there are some podcasts that are literally only five minutes long. They talk about one thing that's it, you get a snack off you go kind of thing. So there's lots of different formats, lots of different ways of doing and I think, listen to a lot of podcasts, understand how they're structured. And then think about what you actually really liked from that and what you'd like to do. I think that's I
Emma Drake 14:43
think that's it thinking about what podcasts you like think it leads to sort of to talk about audience a bit, isn't it? And I think a lot of those ones you talked about the beginning of people to started podcast and stopped I'll wager that they didn't really think about their audience. They didn't really think about why they were starting a podcast. And they didn't really have a goal for that podcast. So mine was very clear. And I wanted to grow a new audience that wanted to learn this type of content. And I also wanted to engage people and come into my world and onto my email list. You know, it's a marketing tool as well, isn't it so that there were two distinct ways I measure the success of the podcast, and I'm still doing it. So it's obviously working, because I'm looking at those metrics, and everything's working. But I think a lot of people that start and stop, just don't think about what they're trying to get out of creating a podcast. Yeah,
Ayo Abbas 15:36
I think there's, I think there is a number of things in it, what you're trying to get out of it. And also that part that we talked about earlier about what you enjoy, and what works for you. Because also, if it's, it's too much of a stretch, you are not going to want to do it regardless. So I think it's that weird, it's a couple of bits you really need to think about is actually, and also time, I guess, time is actually in there as well. How much time do you realistically have to commit? And then they all kind of builds into that picture of, how to get the most out of podcasting? you're right.
Emma Drake 16:10
It all needs thinking about for sure.
Ayo Abbas 16:12
And in terms of how do I know what topics to cover? Or what to do?
Emma Drake 16:18
Well, I think sort of related to audience as well, isn't it? Well, it's the same if we're taking this as a podcast to grow your business to grow your audience, then it's thinking about that audience. As I said, before, there's everything from knitting to swimming the channel, are how to become the next big business leader, poetry all sorts, everything in between, you know, and some of them have, that I've noticed the most niche ones, tend to have really, really good quality downloads. I move in podcasting circles, but actually, that really, some of them have super, super, super niche topic. And I'm like, wow, but actually, they have staggering stats. So you need
Ayo Abbas 17:01
People know what to come to them for it's like, I just want to know about this. Drill down to it. Yeah.
Emma Drake 17:08
That's what you're trying to do all the time, you want to be known for the x y Zed, you want to be the person to go to for, you know, whatever it is, or the way you do something, or the way you attract staff or the way you go about, major projects or whatever it happens to be. So be specific, I think in summary, you know, also do some keyword research, because Apple in particular, you have to log keywords when you log your podcast,d only the first time with them. So think about if the podcasts that you like listening to that you think are in your area, look at what keywords they come up for. There's a little bit of research if you have
Ayo Abbas 17:43
to tag them don't use a cat under categories. By the keywords. Yeah. So I think the categories you're absolutely right, because it's like, I was like, do I come into design or marketing? I think initially, I started off as marketing. Then I looked actually again, and I was like, actually some podcasts that's similar or similar space to mine. They're in Design. So I actually moved it across. But yeah, so you're absolutely right. So there's like two areas you can kind of look at, I think for what we do. So it's really interesting. And you're right, it's getting the right categories. Yeah, thinking, you know, what topics, but I think I mean, it was interesting, when you're talking like topics and stuff, it's like, actually, that's one of the reasons for this name change for my show for actually, I do built environment marketing is what I do as a business and actually having my podcast with a similar name, it fits into all my other comms, so much better and so much more closely. So you're right, in terms of having an aligned strategy, and how everything fits together in your marketing ecosystem. I think that's what you need to do as well. So understanding that what topics and I know yes, my podcast is very, very niche, and I'm happy with that. But you know, because that's doing, that's helping the audience that I want to target. But it's also but I always make sure that the conversations are still open to other people outside the sector. It doesn't stop them from listening. Still very conversational. But I do built environment marketing so I it will always relate back to that. So yeah, it does work really well. And that was literally 10 titles on the train in June. I looked back and I was like Oh yeah.
Emma Drake 19:17
Exactly what it says on the tin. And that's, that's what I went for was mine. Sometimes you can overthink these things. Yeah. And
Ayo Abbas 19:23
also, I think as well, if you're, if you've got a second capture someone's attention when they're flipping through under the podcast, make it as simple as possible. It's like any problems is what's going to stop the scroll and it's like actually I need that that's me
Emma Drake 19:35
It's much harder to grow on just on names. It's much harder to grow a podcast that has an unusual name, if you call yourself The Inbetweeners, but it's actually about HR. I don't know why pick no one's gonna understand. And they won't find and what's your
Ayo Abbas 19:53
podcast again? If you got one? Yeah, it's like it. It's a lot easier now to find. So I think yeah, definitely on topics, don't be worried, don't be too worried about being too niche.
Emma Drake 20:02
And if you look at more serious business or let's talk about, the really, really famous shows and even in marketing, the top top three, five, they did their names on they do exactly what they say on the tin.
Ayo Abbas 20:21
okay, so moving on. So is the only option that you have to do a show yourself,
Emma Drake 20:28
No, I know people that do what, there's lots of formats, you could do whatever you like, there's no rules. You know, you do you so I would say, for me, it was always going to be a solo show. And I do and I have guests on every so often, your format is a guest show,
Ayo Abbas 20:47
I might still do some individual ones at some point. But yeah, I'm really rubbish recording. I find it easier to interview them like this, recording them on my own, I'm like, I find that really hard. And I just had two hours for three minutes.
Emma Drake 21:04
It's practice and some people do say very little on their podcast. So I've been on one and you know, it was lunch, they didn't say anything really, which is very, again, a different style. Sometimes it's all about the co host talking to each other. Which you know, is t is another style, you know, it's sort of this sort of banter type podcast, there's so many.
Ayo Abbas 21:30
But also I think I think about you don't have to do your own show, like your strategy to the actually, I'm going to aim to go on four podcasts in my area of specialisation, over the next year actually be your strategy. And I think that's actually a good way in if before you set up on your own is actually to find out if you like being on podcasts, and actually, someone else does all the work. So yeah, I kind of think actually, as a strategy. That's a good way in and I actually would say to people start there before doing your own, because then at least you're not sitting there trying to set up a podcast, buy the equipment, do all of that stuff, and then suddenly go, I don't like it.
Emma Drake 22:09
I don't like what those people did in 2020, when they just did five episodes and went oh, gosh, this is not for me.
Ayo Abbas 22:15
It's hard work actually. Yeah. So I think so going on going on other people's, but making sure you do it well. So you have listened to this show, you understand why you'd be a good guest, though, doing all the good stuff. I think there's going to be
Emma Drake 22:29
inside track on how it works. I mean, I've been surprised and people have come on to the podcast, and they've known very little about what's going on. And I've had to explain, you know, you need to wear headphones. You know, you need to make sure you're somewhere that's quiet.
Ayo Abbas 22:43
Do you not do do you do for briefs? Because I yeah,
Emma Drake 22:48
this I do a pre chat. So I'm referring to the pre-chat. So I've been surprised at how little people know about oh yeah, I'll come on your podcast, and I talked about that, right? You can't swear. You can't. You can talk you can talk over each other, that's fine. But over the over the ear headphones really helped with that, because you can really hear the other person and you can hear your own voice and make sure you in a quiet room. And you know, just little things like that. Really, it's it's so you would get Yeah, you would get a lot of experience going on other podcasts first. I can see what that was the easiest
Ayo Abbas 23:17
way, I think. But also I just it's your way of sharing your knowledge with their audience. Again, you know, that whole thing of, you know, community and partnering and building your visibility and business by other people's networks. It's a great way of doing it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. In terms of business growth. And are there kind of any tips you have on getting on other people's podcasts?
Emma Drake 23:41
Well, you know, this is still quite an undeveloped area, I think there are. So there are not that many podcast directories. And most of them are paid for now, which is a shame. There's not really anyone doing that for free, which is, which is a shame. There are a few but you have to be in the right sort of groups to know where they are. And finding the right guests I think is tricky. So, LinkedIn is great. You can find people on LinkedIn. So that's why it's important to go back to Stacy's show yesterday, and she was on your podcast yesterday, Stacey Meadwell and it was about LinkedIn, actually, it's really important that you are consistent across channels. Because if someone's coming on,looking at your LinkedIn feed to see if you can talk about a topic. You know, that's one of the
Ayo Abbas 24:33
everything got to be interconnected now I think you're absolutely right.
Emma Drake 24:38
And, you know, if you're going on podcast, make sure you listen to them. I get approached by people because I'm the marketing and they've got my audience though. That's not you haven't listened to my podcast. Would you like
Ayo Abbas 24:52
to have the best ever us Forbes rating blah, blah, blah talking and you're like No. Audience Yeah.
Emma Drake 25:00
Um, yeah. So I think I think I guess, as we've just said about the prep time having a really good brief because not everyone knows what they're doing. Some people might be nervous, and it's just having that really clear. I think having some sort of formula you want to go through even if you don't go through, it makes everyone feel more comfortable.
Ayo Abbas 25:18
I don't think it's too dissimilar to like, because we obviously in what we do, it's not dissimilar to like having a brief or an event, you know, like, what's your structure into questions? This is the equipment you need to do to prepare. So having all of that ready, but also, I think, if you're going to, like you said, in terms of listening to a few episodes, that's important. Also, how you approach people, do you need to offer them something, you know, I always think you get your wish list of the podcasts that you want to get on, understand what their podcast is trying to do. So you know, who are they targeting what they talk about, and then write a tailored pitch, which is, I listen to this show with Stacey, this is what Stacey said, I thought it was really good. This is, you know, my connections and what I could bring to your show, here are some ideas on what I could talk about. Yeah. And you could do it in their style of like, titles. So you know, it shows that you are, you know, it's a tailored pitch, whereas a lot of the stuff that we get is pure spam.
Emma Drake 26:16
Have you had a cold pitch that you've had on yet?
Ayo Abbas 26:18
No,
Emma Drake 26:19
no, me either.
Ayo Abbas 26:20
I've had pure spam, all I've had is spam. So every guest I have I approach? I've not had a cold pitch where I've gone. This is a really good pitch. I just haven't had one come through but I do understand that. I mean, it's like any cold pitch, right? I think you've got to even if someone did this, and they sold it to me in the way that, listen to your show really liked this episode was actually because rather than just using that as a statement than not saying why. And then a couple of this is what I can bring to your show, then I would be a lot more open to it. But I've not had one come through.
Emma Drake 26:55
It's tricky. And I think the other places to find shows is to look at podcast directories and look for keywords. And see if there are people already as a speaker, because having people from other podcasts is a great way, as we've already said, so finding other shows, or just ideas for for content, or guests that might have been on other podcasts that were really good, actually,
Ayo Abbas 27:15
yeah, I've got one out next week where it's AEC Marketing Show, which is a US based one, she does exactly the same thing as me and like, but that's great. So she'll put links to my show, and vice versa. And, you know, so it's a whole reciprocal audience of definitely interested in, in our sector. So yeah, works very, very well. So next thing is, I guess we need to talk about how to get onto Apple and Spotify. How do you get your podcast onto there? How does it work?
Emma Drake 27:43
Well, this is a bit of a technical question isn't it. But basically, you do have to have a host for your podcast. So there's host platforms. And then in simplified terms, you know that button Buzzsprout or Anchor FM or Libsyn or others. So you can put them on any of those, you just you can choose one that suits your budget, suits how many shows you're releasing, there's an RSS feed that basically pushes your show out to these platforms, and you choose which platforms you want to have them on. Now, the first time you do Apple is a bit of a strange, weird glitchy thing where Apple like you to pre-register a show, you have to apply to be on Apple and they ask for more criteria. stipulate the exact artwork size, you have to assess whether your show is going to be classed as explicit or not. And it's explicit if one person swears. So this is why I'm quite I'm quite restricted. Because they can rewrite your show as explicit if you have someone on that's swearing. So if that's you only do that once. And it's really straightforward. They don't make it too difficult. But you do have to wait a couple of weeks for them to recognise your show. But you only do that once. So then it's just basically using any kind of I mean, the user interface for most of these hosting platforms are pretty simple. Just to
Ayo Abbas 29:07
it's just a simple upload for the show, what's the title and then show notes in.
Emma Drake 29:10
integrated format,they have some sort of word widget in there that makes it really easy to paste text in and links, things like that. So yeah, that's it really you just choose where you want go. So mine goes up push to my website, every week, it gets pushed onto all the major platforms. I would I get my listeners are split between Spotify is a very, very close second to Apple at the moment. In fact, it nudges above it quite often now. Which is interesting.
Ayo Abbas 29:39
But yeah, I guess it just depends, isn't it, where people are listening from and all of that . But you're absolutely right. The whole thing about you've got your host where you upload your episode to and they host that piece of content. And then it's pushed out to the various directories which are Apple and Spotify and whenever you hit publish, and it's quite an easy system to do once you've set it up. Yeah, just set it up at the start of the application bit. But that's all kind of done for via your host.
Emma Drake 30:02
Yeah, I suppose anything I've said about host, it's just, I don't know if it's still the case. But certainly when I started my podcast, there are places like Anchor FM, which are free and great and easy to use. But you need to just watch that you do own your content that you're putting up there. Which is why I ended up going for a paid for service with Libsyn. So quite a few people, you know, came a cropper where they actually can do whatever they like with the content. And because it does, it isn't actually yours.
Ayo Abbas 30:29
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Owning your own content. I think it's important. And it's a small amount. I think I pay like, eight/nine quid a month. So it's not huge. And I think as well, when you're looking at, yeah, just think about what you want from your podcast episodes. Which host you use, really, but there are some good entry level ones you can use and they're really easy to use.
Emma Drake 30:51
Yeah, people. They don't know we use different ones. I think, don't we
Ayo Abbas 30:55
You use? Libsyn, don't you? Yeah, I'm a Buzzsprouter . But I might look for one that does video, maybe I might switch it to Libsyn does video, oh, maybe I might have a look
Emma Drake 31:10
They're on the beta version of Libsyn five at the moment, I think is supposed to be slightly better as well. But
Ayo Abbas 31:16
it's in the back of my head, but I don't need to do. So what is the best way to measure ROI or return on investment as it's known? In your opinon.
Emma Drake 31:24
This made me think this question, actually, because I've, I know, from my own perspective, what I'm doing, and I know what my goal is, but actually really made me think about how to help people listening today with, with things and it's a few things I came across recently. And one was that I think reviews used to be a really heralded as this sort of way of getting a really good show and having lots of reviews. And it is important to have reviews for Apple. And for social proof, you know, when you're sharing posts on social media, and you want people to listen, it's always a really it's like recommendations, isn't it? Good. But I'd be really clear about why you're using that metric. There's no evidence now that supports that in any way Apple will prioritise your podcast if it has more reviews, or it will in any way, relate to downloads. So that's something to think about. And increasing your I think increasing your reach and increasing your downloads is a good one. But not in that, oh, I want X amount of downloads, it's about that incremental growth. So having a having a goal and looking at ways you can achieve that goal. So whether that's an extra 100 a month, or whether you want to be doubling the size bar in six months, it's cheap, and work towards that, because most of, this Ayo but most of the work in getting downloads is in the marketing of the podcast, and sharing
Ayo Abbas 32:46
it and sharing it again and sharing in a slightly different way with the different angle. But yeah, and you're absolutely right. And I, I kind of put down I mean, you've got normal, like the listeners, the followers, people following you. You've also got, I mean, the thing I find is that you can't sit there and go, Well, someone from this company followed, listen to an episode, you can't go that granular. But what you can do, you can for example, in Google Analytics, you can set up UTM links. So like you can add those and use those to track how many people are converting from LinkedIn, or how many people are converting from different social media?
Emma Drake 33:22
Very few from LinkedIn.
Ayo Abbas 33:25
But then I think most of mine is actually from LinkedIn. So I think I see it's kind of who your audience are and who you're connected to as well. It's really Yeah, I think that's the one bit where it's like, it's really hard. But I think a lot of it is also anecdotal. So if I'm out and about and someone says, I listen, then that's the metric that I kind of think, oh, yeah,
Emma Drake 33:44
and then there are other things as well like the Apple podcast charts, I mean, if you it's a good stat, I go in and out of the charts, I've been in the top one, I have some semi regularly in the top 100 for marketing in the UK, but in lots of charts. I was, you know, big in South Africa for a lot more than us as my second biggest market and but but Africa and South Africa, I'm pretty huge.
Ayo Abbas 34:17
Walking down Cape Town one day. Emma is that you I know that voice.
Emma Drake 34:24
but it's about you know, understanding where you want to be. And this comes back to setting goals and things like that. Yeah, sure. You understand what you know if that's important to you then you know, set that as your benchmark but but it's the growing the downloads is not it just it doesn't actually happen organically is what I just that was my big no, you have to do a
Ayo Abbas 34:45
you have to do a lot of work to grow it and I think that's that you look at it as constantly, you know, keep talking about your podcast, keep sharing it to the people. I mean, still now people go I didn't know you had a podcast. It's like, really.
Emma Drake 34:57
say that in my stats when I first started it was like this. And I didn't really have the right things in place. You know, the links, we've talked about making sure everything's got a link, the conversions are really big. And then I started to do more on my conversions just start to do this,
Ayo Abbas 35:13
and you see it and it's like, actually, that's what you need. Before we close out, and we do have a question from Michael Fisher, who I know does a podcast called Constructive Voices, I think it's called. So he's asked the question, what platform do you use for guest podcast episodes? Which ones do you use them?
Emma Drake 35:30
I just use Zoom. But I don't use video
Ayo Abbas 35:33
I've used it before. How do you
Emma Drake 35:36
fine but if you put your video on the audio quality nosedives?
Ayo Abbas 35:42
Really,
Emma Drake 35:42
Yeah, massively. That's what I just turn the video off. And they go, Oh, really? Yep,
Ayo Abbas 35:48
I was gonna say, Well, my recommendation will work for you, if I the one I tend to use is called Zencastr, which is actually a dedicated audio recording thing. And but you do have video, the free version, you do have video, but it doesn't record it. So but it means you can see each other, and it still records it. And it's way better than zoom. And your audio quality is high quality audio. So that's the one that I use. For this, obviously, I'm using, I'm using Streamyard because I'm recording, we're doing this live streamed into LinkedIn. And actually, I've upgraded my premium so that I can download individual audio tracks. And actually, the audio from this is very, very good as well. So those are two that you could use Streamyard. But Zencastzr is actually free.
Emma Drake 36:33
I have used it once but only once
Ayo Abbas 36:36
but yeah, the free one is absolutely great. And you get high quality audio, and you can see people and not record. So I think that's fine, because at least it's easier to interview. I used to do interviews and not see people and it's just harder. It's just you don't have that rapport. And it's hard to not jump in and stuff like that. So that's what I use. I hope that helps Michael. And now oh, leadership in construction. Ever tried Riverside. I've tried it I didn't like it that much. Did you like it?
Emma Drake 37:06
Riverside, I've never used it. But I much like Anchor I don't think you own your own content. You need to check that out first. But that's I've not heard brilliant things about it. But I haven't personally used it myself. So I can't
Ayo Abbas 37:21
actually I recorded a podcast with on someone else's podcast the other week on Riverside, took absolutely ages to upload the track to the actual application literally like half an hour. When normally on Zencastr, it's more or less instantaneous. So I was a bit like, this is a long time to upload the audio. So I didn't love it that much. So yes, so I use Zencastr, not Riverside. Okay, so tools, resources and tips, so quickfire round top tools and resources to follow if you want to get into podcasting.
Emma Drake 37:54
I really enjoyed collecting these for my own episodes. So Podfollow is free. And it allows you to create a show link before you've released an episode, which means you can create all your socials and schedule your content to coincide with when your show goes live. So you'd have to show live, go back in and get the link and then put it into your social. My next one is SpeakPipe, which is free. So if you want to continue the sort of audio theme with people engaging with you and getting in touch, it's a free voicemail platform, you create your Speakpipe page, and people can leave you audio content, which and I've had some really interesting responses on their
Ayo Abbas 38:33
Memo.fm. Another one that does exactly the same thing. Call in in record. Yeah, that's enough.
Emma Drake 38:39
Like it in terms of marketing Canva Quick Create is a really simple way to create multiple posts about your podcast artwork. So you can it creates all the different ones you might need for different platforms but with one piece of artwork, you probably need Pro for that it's not very expensive, but $10 a month, you need to we can upload your brand guidelines so it does it all for you which saves you going in again and creating individual posts each time otter.ai is free for transcriptions. I use the paid version but I released four episodes a month so it works out fine for me. Really, really good quality transcription just upload your audio file and it's ready really quickly. I have also used rev.com that's paid for. I've switched to just using auto there wasn't really much value in me using a paid for one as much paying as much as rev costs for for theirs. Although they do do good subtitles if you're using video. Wavve is good for audiograms for audio clip. I also use headliner mostly because it's free with Libsyb so I don't have to do any uploading and downloading it just do you want to create a headliner from this show? Free hosting platforms I think we've covered but yeah, check the T's and C's and my last one is Audio Jungle which is really good free intro and outro Royalty free music or for special effects, which I sometimes have sshhhrruussshh in my show.
Ayo Abbas 40:07
mind doesn't fit on my own, that's for sure. I had a couple. So I think the Podcasting for Business podcasts that Lynsey Anne does is very good, gives you a lot of really practical stuff. And also she does produce she produces and run courses. And also, there's something called Kristen. I think it's Kristen Meinzer. And she does a lot on social media. And she talks a lot about talking about podcasts. And she also has a book, which is So you want to start a podcast, which was one of the things that I kind of read when I was setting up in July 2020.
Emma Drake 40:41
Yeah, Lynsey helped me with my podcast.
Ayo Abbas 40:43
Yeah. So those are my hints and tips. And that's kind of it. And thank you for coming on the show, Emma? And how can people find out about you?
Emma Drake 40:53
Well, I'm on LinkedIn. My podcast is on all the major streaming platforms, so you can search for Emma Drake or Communication Strategy That Works. Or you can go to my consulting website, which is henby.co.uk.
Ayo Abbas 41:08
Fantastic. Everything will be in the shownotes as per normal. And thank you for coming on. So thank you so much. Bye, bye. Thanks so much for listening to the built environment marketing show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abbasmarketing.com. And of course if you like the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
