Ep 42: Research, Resi and Gen Z with Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee
Today's show is a cracker and takes a slightly different angle as we delve more into the world of business-to-consumer (B2C) marketing and takes a look at the private residential sector.
My two amazing guests are Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee, co/founders of the marketing agency The Property Marketing Strategists.
In this episode we talk about:
Why data and research should be the foundation of your marketing
Why we all need to get better at listening to young people and acting on that information
Why firms need a proper budget for research
The differences between B2C and B2B marketing
The missing layer of leadership in marketing teams and what can be done to fill it
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is a podcast for architects, engineers, marketers and anyone interested in all things built environment and marketing related.
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Transcript.
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of The Built Environment Marketing Show hosted by me Ayo Abbas, an award winning marketing consultant. I run Abbas Marketing, which is a built environment marketing consultancy that works with leading firms in the industry to figure out their marketing strategy, content and campaigns. Today, I've got not one, but two very special guests. And they are Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee, the co-founders of marketing agency, The Property Marketing Strategists. In this episode, we talk about why data and research should be the foundation of your marketing, why we all need to get better at listening to young people and acting on that information, and why firms need a proper budget for research. We also touched on the fact that there's a missing gap in terms of leadership in marketing, and how teams at the moment are very, very junior. Anyway, I'll stop talking now and let you get on with enjoying the show. Take care. Bye. Hi, Sarah and Deenie, thanks so much, and welcome to the show. So my first question is, can you introduce yourself and The Property Marketing Strategists do you want to go first, Sarah
Sarah Canning 01:15
Yeah. Hi, Ayo, thanks so much for inviting us onto The Built Environment Marketing Show, we're very excited to be here. I'm Sarah Canning, I'm one half as The Property Marketing Strategists. We are a small agency specialising in the in the private rented sector. We've always worked in property and education. And, and really, our focus is to establish marketing as a key function of property marketing. And we work with clients on a consultancy basis. But we also do a lot of events and initiatives and research and to elevate the role of marketing within the industry.
Ayo Abbas 01:54
And Deenie over to you.
Deenie Lee 01:56
Hi, I'm Deenie and thank you so much for having us. Oh, it's great to be here. And I'm the other half of The Property Marketing Strategists. I don't think I could say that much better than Sarah said. But just that really our passion is to make the sector better at what they're doing delivering for customers, investors, and all the stakeholders in the business.
Ayo Abbas 02:17
So, I'm gonna ask the follow up question. So, how do you make the sector better? Who wants to go for that? Because it's like you say making marketing a key function and making the sector better, are awesome ambitions, by the way, because it's so important, and I completely get why but how,
Sarah Canning 02:34
that's how it started. To be honest, that's how our business started is that we suspected that the sector don't ask their customers enough about the product and about marketing. So before we were even a business, we decided to do a survey to the sector to find out if our hunches were true. And that was correct. So once we have the data to say this is where the industry is failing. And, and the impact of not asking customers, what they want is that we felt that there was a homogenisation in the product. And that therefore, the sector won't be able to fulfil their ambitions from a commercial and investment point of view. So everything we do, really we back up with data and research. And we question and we challenge. And, we, I guess because we're freelance, we are in a position where we're able to do that with our clients and with the sector in a way that you can't do as well, if you're working in house in a full time marketing director role.
Ayo Abbas 03:38
And I
Ayo Abbas 03:38
guess that's a lot of what you're doing. It's actually you're challenging, aren't you? And you're not afraid to challenge isn't it? You're gonna go and go, Okay, you've based this on this? Why? And it's like, where's the data to back up why that's been done in that way? I guess, is it?
Deenie Lee 03:51
Yeah. And I guess we are filling the gaps that the sector knows that they have that they knows that they want to do, but they often don't have the time or the resources or the inclination to ask the real questions. So I think like, everything that we do, we provide for free, for the sector to kind of understand and be better than a lot of the stuff that we do that the research we do, like the youth forum we do, it's things that we were frustrated that we couldn't do when we were in sector, because we were running big marketing departments, and we couldn't get the budget sign off, we couldn't get the results we couldn't. So it's just taking the things that we know, that can help with the answers, and giving them to sector in a way that they can digest and engage with.
Ayo Abbas 04:38
So I'm just going to take you back a step. So what sectors do you guys specialise in because I guess we haven't really covered that so that people understand because you're different to my normal clients. The normal people I speak to because I'm more of a kind of business-to-business person, consultant where I work with architects and specifiers but normally who you work with is slightly different.
Sarah Canning 04:58
It's quite varied, to be honest. And again, that's the benefit of doing what we're doing. So our background is purpose-built student accommodation or PBSA. But that is also covered kind of build to rent as well. So kind of the next stage of the private rented sector, but also, we're dealing with young people as the end user as the customer. And because of that, we've been privileged enough to work with some universities who actually have seen the benefit in our experience in university accommodation. And we've also worked in in PropTech as well. Really, because of the work that we've done with the end user with the Gen Z sector. And it feels like we've become a little bit of the go to people to sanity check user experience, the customer journey and user flow in a way that tech companies can't always visualise or can't always have the access to. So yeah, so it's really varied, who we work with. And I think what we need to, I guess, ensure the industry understands is that whilst we predominantly work in student accommodation, and Gen Z, they are the future house buyers, they are the future house renters, they are the future workforce, they are the future tech users. So we've really got to listen to what that generation is saying. And they're the generation that, to be honest, are quite often forgotten about, they're quite, you know, their views are quite often, you know, minimised, for example, you know, at the moment, with regards to the cost of living, any, you know, I can't think of a time when a member of parliament or anyone in government has been talking about what how that impacts students, you know, and how, you know, usually Yeah, you know, there's some desperate situations going on about, but you know, they've been forgotten about, and it's the same with the product a student accommodation, really. And even within industry, we, you know, we actually cringe, and we do call people out when we hear people referring to their customers as kids, that's so it negates the impact and the value of their opinion, and they're paying a huge amount of rent. You know, the average rent is just under for student is just under 8000 pounds a year outside of London. So, ignore their views at your peril, because actually, you know, they are voting with their feet and with their pounds,
Ayo Abbas 07:31
I will never forget, I went to university a long time ago, but in Hertfordshire, and I'll never forget that our halls of residence now uni was so bad with students at that time, like how they treated their international students, literally another university poached a whole coach load of university students, international students and their fees. And they even sent a coach to collect them. So you can just imagine how much money that was on that bus. And that was because they weren't looking after them. And it's like, they're not kids they're paying for this. And they would have been paying way more fees than we would have done and their accommodation. So that coach was worth millions. It was right, it was completely I even I noticed that I was like, that's a lot of money leaving this university. Because they didn't value them. Yeah,
Deenie Lee 08:21
they don't, then I think the thing that I learned out of the years that I've been working with young people is that they are far more switched on, far more dedicated, far more know about their rights, and what is the right way to treat them than I think I was when I was kind of in that generation, you can't get anything past them. You can't kind of turn blind eye to them. Because they know what their rights are. They know what they want. They're dedicated to where they want to get to, and we as a society have a right to help them do that, not ignore them.
Ayo Abbas 08:54
And I think the other thing is, they're not afraid to ask, which I know annoys a lot of people. It's like, Oh, yes.
Sarah Canning 09:00
I mean, we've done surveys and focus groups and for our own research, but also for clients. And we're never not surprised, and it just shows you how important that is because you can't take their views for granted. And most of the people, ourselves included, sadly, are not that generation we're many, many years away. And it's quite funny because we get older, but our kind of audience stays the same. If we're always dealing with 18 to 21 year olds generally, but their views change. They might be the same generation but we see their views changing year in year out. The demographic in this country changes a lot because of international students because of different policies that are in place to encourage different types of people to go into higher education but also into further education and apprenticeships. You've got the current cost of living crisis, that we see differences in people's views, and I mean, our, our message to the sector is that you can't really classify your customer base as one, you know, you're not targeting this group. No, absolutely not. And this is now very, very clear that students are saying we are not one homogenous group, they want to be targeted, and segmented in relation to their interests and their and their views. So building one product for that age group, and that demographic is, you know, is a massive, massive mistake.
Ayo Abbas 10:33
Wow, that's amazing. So what would you kind of see as the differences, when you're marketing to that group, that people need to kind of that clients, the sector need to understand how can they segment that market, what do they need to do? There any particular things they should be looking at doing?
Deenie Lee 10:49
They need to understand their demographic in their building, you know, no, City is the same, no buildings, the same, the university is the same, no residential community is the same. And I think, if you're not asking the questions of that community about what they want, what they liked about their product, what they don't like about their product, what's frustrating them, then you're never going to improve that product or change that product or, or be prepared for the future. And I think far too often, and probably more so in student accommodation is that it's been really good for so long, and there's demand there, and you can build and people arrive, actually, when you get a much better kind of educated audience, when you get an audience that knows what they want, and what they should be getting. And they're gonna vote with their feet. And if you're not asking the questions, now, when you've got a three to five year build project, you're going to be way behind the curve further down that line. So I think it's just, as Sarah said, right, get it. And it's all in the data. So it's understanding your data, understanding your trends, understanding how that demographic is shifting, and speaking to them, asking them engaging with them. And learning, you know, every day is a day to learn. I think that's a key thing in driving product forward,
Sarah Canning 12:08
we're seeing this start to leak into build to rent as well, again, the market is incredibly buoyant at the moment. And, developers are successfully filling their buildings on what's currently being developed. But those people's views will change, and the market will become tougher as it gets more and more competitive. So for people to stay ahead of the curve, and to stay competitive, they need to constantly be evolving and asking, you know, the future customers, not the customer, we always think it's much more interesting to ask people who didn't buy your product, because the people who did buy your product, and the people who a can afford it, and who chose those facilities. But, you know, I would be much more interested in asking the people who didn't buy that product. Why didn't they? And is there a better product for those people?
Ayo Abbas 12:59
Yeah, or why you went elsewhere? Right? Because he voted with your feet, and they weren't, they weren't at my door. I mean, you're absolutely right. And but I guess so those are the hard lessons and questions to ask. Right? So I guess that's where working with someone like you, at least your external, so it's not take it to heart as much right.
Sarah Canning 13:17
But it's also the resource. You know, we've worked within,, for many different property developers and operators. And where does research sit? It doesn't, although we work in marketing, it doesn't really feel like a traditional marketers role. Most companies don't have a researchers role. Is it the role of the investor? Is it the role of the developer? Or is it operations, and we work with people's hunger, we really want to do this, but we don't have budget for it in our marketing budget, we're like, why would it sit within a marketing budget, that's not necessarily where it sits. It has to be collective to get the product, right. And what often happens is that the marketers are involved at a very, very late stage. And they quite often have the answers because they're watching stuff, they're listening to the customers, they're on social media, they're seeing the box, but the development team and the acquisitions team and the investors don't necessarily know that. So as well as asking the customers it's, you know, listening to the customers, but working collaboratively within a property development or investment team to get the product right for the right people at the right time. So, you know, yes, we do, you know, we are able to provide that service, but we very much work in collaboration with the internal team quite often because they don't have the internal resource to be all the, you know, the knowledge or the experience. And you know, the worst thing that can happen with research is that you do it or nobody listens, and you don't act on it. And we're very gracious about that.
Ayo Abbas 14:54
So in some ways, is it something that research should actually sit at board level do you know what I mean to actually have proper research to drive all aspects of your business in a way, because if you think about all the functional areas that you're talking about, they described earlier that it actually impacts on from what your product is how you sell it, you know, all of that kind of stuff. In some ways it kind of needs to be elevated in a way, even though it's missed at the moment. Is that the case?
Deenie Lee 15:17
I think it's understanding what your objective is, I think, and driven from the business leaders is where that's going to happen. I think the issue far too often is that research is done to reaffirm what you're doing, and to prove that you're performing, and you're doing what you need to do. But actually, what is that telling you in terms of driving business forward? So, you know, and throughout my career, I've always focused if we're going to go out to our customers, you know, what, what other questions can I sneak in there? What else can I understand what you know, what do I want to know from them? Now, that's going to make me make changes to my business going forward. And I think unless you've got an if it's done by one department, you're always going to get one department focusing on what they want to listen and learn. If it's done by operation, they just want to prove that you know, how they're performing. And it's just operated by marketing, it's just going to be about how's my marketing functioning house? Whereas actually, if it's taken into actually, what's the business objectives? How does the business want to move into the future, then you can get a really decent piece of research that can drive the strands of the business and impact everyone in that problem.
Ayo Abbas 16:27
So can you tell us about the recent research that you've done into Gen Z, and how that how that came about, and some of the kind of key findings that you found most to kick off with that one,
Sarah Canning 16:37
it was a kind of an extension of the work that we did initially to find out that the market aren't asking their customers what they want. And we decided that we would do it for the industry, we're working with an amazing partner called UPP which is the largest on campus, university, providers who've been incredibly supportive. And we have sponsors as well, which has enabled us to not only do it from a resource point of view, but also have a great team of people that have been able to input into it. And what we wanted to find out is what does the future home look like according to Gen Z, what do they actually want. And we split it into different different pillars, as we call them, which is community, affordability, sustainability, wellbeing, technology and technology. Technology, there's always the same one and it's never the same one that I forget either.
Ayo Abbas 17:48
I know there's five I know there is..
Sarah Canning 17:52
and it was a long survey. So we surveyed 2,500 young people, they were 16 to 18 year olds, they were current students, and they were graduates, we didn't want to assume that this is about students, because there are many 16 to 18 year olds that haven't decided if they're going to university and don't understand what student accommodation is. So we wanted to make sure that we had the full breadth of the future of home. And it was a long survey, it was over 20 questions. I imagine it was quite time consuming for the participants. And what that's given us is a big, big body of research that we're cutting and analysing in different ways. And we've launched it into a series of webinars, blogs, podcasts with had quite a lot of press coverage about it as well.
Ayo Abbas 18:40
The BBC
Sarah Canning 18:42
Yes, Deenie was there on the BBC. And what's really interesting is that there's so many different ways to cut the data. We've got quite a bit of demand at the moment to cut our data to differentiate international students and domestic students. And we can can do that. And we had a really interesting query about do we have any data on young people who have been in care? Now we don't, but it was great to be challenged on that. And we're potentially working on another piece of research with that company, to find those questions out. So yeah, we were absolutely delighted with the response that we've had. And some of the most of the answers were, challenge what is being built in the sector, which is great, because that, you know, I guess the worst case scenario was is that all of what's out there, and we're like, oh, that's not very interesting. But actually, that's not the case. And as Deenie said I think what we wanted to do that was different is that our research or database is independent. It doesn't it's not from a group of people who are living in a particular, operators buildings, it's not a particular part of the country. Right. And also our data has been analysed by Data Loft. So we're confident that we've pulled the right kind of meaningful answers out of what we've we've done to benefit the industry. And what
Deenie Lee 20:13
we were able to do with all those different datasets was understand that journey for Gen Z through kind of their choices of accommodation and being able to look at kind of future students, students, and graduates were able to understand kind of the reality going into that first place from home to kind of what your expectations were they met kind of when you go and come out as a graduate. And that's quite powerful data and understanding that, yes, people are excited about this going in. But actually what really matters when they're there, and when they come out is something else entirely. And that industry, which wouldn't have had that data before.
Ayo Abbas 20:53
Hey, it's Ayo
Ayo Abbas 20:53
here. And I just wanted to tell you a bit more about the show. The Built Environment Marketing Show was set up during lockdown one as a way to help firms do better marketing. It was very much about having the conversations that I have with my friends, and showing what best practice really is. In terms of me. Well, I'm actually a generalist marketer. So I know lots of things about marketing and how to put everything together. So I could be talking about, you know, PR, or understanding what to do next strategy wise, or figuring out how to get in front of the right audience or what messaging you should be using. Those are all things that I'm kind of really skilled in and understand how to do for my clients. I now work for myself, and I set up my own consultancy at best marketing in 2020. And I'm working with a range of engineering and architectural firms, and even prop tech firms who really want to, I guess, talk the language of their clients and their audiences and do something a bit different in terms of their strategy and content. If what I do sounds of interest to you do email me at ayo@abbasmarketing.com. And that's a-y-o, or head to my website, which is www.abbasmarketing.com. For more info, there's also a link in the shownotes
Ayo Abbas 22:01
bye.
Ayo Abbas 22:07
just stepping back a bit from your research. So in terms of research as a marketing tool, how can I guess firms that are in the sector look to kind of, I guess include that as part of their marketing mix there any tips on getting started in research? Or what to do?
Deenie Lee 22:23
I think it's just again, it comes down to this. Where do you want to go as a business? What questions do you have, how you're gonna go get them and I talk to clients that we work with all the time, and I'll talk to designers and people in marketing. And I'll kind of always say to them, you've got a base of like, your customers out there living in your buildings, like you can't get much more personal and practice on that. And I'll always say to a designer that's both from a new campaign, go and do a friend go go out and walk around some student accommodation, showing them what you've got and talk to him, talk to him about it and get some feedback. So I think I think far too often people see it as a stumbling block of I need all this other stuff. Whereas actually, it's just a what do I want to know? What questions do I have? And how do I find those people to talk to and I think the clear thing, as I said, You got to understand what you want to understand before you go off to do it, because otherwise you'll be going off in all different tangents.
Sarah Canning 23:28
messaging as well. So think from a marketing point of view. Now what's clear that's come out of our research is, the absolute impact of the cost of living and how much focus that is and how, I guess distracting it is for the moment. So, I was at a conference speaking the other week, and I said to everybody, if you're not including the word, bills included as a key message in your marketing campaign, you know, you should be because that's what the students want to hear at the moment. That's what's on the lips of young people. Now, a few years ago, it was all about, you know, Wi Fi, and then everyone stopped talking about it, because it was just a given. But actually, in our research, it's still really important, particularly for those future students who quite frankly, lived through hell during COVID, probably in their houses with terrible Wi Fi. So the one thing that they want to know is when they go into their student accommodation, they're going to have great Wi Fi. And if you don't ask those questions, I think it's really easy as people who are not the right demographic who do not live in that environment, just to take these messages for granted. So you have to, you know, you have to really put yourself in the shoes of the customer. And again, you know, we've got the benefits we don't work with in one particular organisation, but I know from experience that it's very easy for marketing point of view, to churn the same stuff out, you know, year in, year out. And just because it worked one year, you know, in particularly in student accommodation, and you know, also in the rest of the private rented sector because there's quite a high turnover. It's a new audience all the time. So you think I'll just do the same thing but that audience changes and what they want and what they're focused on. The environment message, you know, sustainability, we know, should be a bit more of a key driver in decision making. But it's currently not, being quite frank about it, it's the cost of living that is the primary message. So there will be a time and a place, we're confident that environmental and sustainability sustainable messages are front and centre of customer communications. But it's not the time now, you know, and there are many things that are more of a priority. I guess
Ayo Abbas 25:40
that's a good point. It's the timeliness. I always think the messaging is about that timeliness, isn't it? How do you look around and go? Actually, this is what we need to be talking about right now. And it's like, it costs. You know, ultimately, if you can't afford to be in university, you can't afford to be there. That's probably that is going to top any issue at the moment for everybody, I guess, isn't it? And having things like bills included? It'll be I know, and how much I need to pay out each month. And that's, that's the key thing, right? I guess it's just looking at those present issues. What does that mean for students and, and asking them,
Deenie Lee 26:10
it's about marketing is about marketing a product isn't about products, but part of that role is educating them in what their product is and what their expectations are. And you can't do that unless you understand the place they're in. And like Sarah says, if it is about it's not what our research isn't saying that young people don't care, gents, it don't care about sustainability, they do care about it. But their view is that it's not me that you don't pay for it. And I still need to be able to afford my accommodation. And that's going to be my driver for moving forward. And similarly, you know, the things around Wi Fi and, and one of the things that really struck us in our research was around that there's future students were desperate for a printer. And it's kind of like what
Deenie Lee 26:51
what we've kind of from our focus groups, and from the subsequent work we've done, I think what it's about is what Sarah was saying about this kind of being stuck at home with a parent, you're all trying to print things. And actually, there might be an education piece, and you actually don't need to worry about a printer, because you'll have ones at the University on site that you can just go and use a card. And it's just done and dusted. And it's really simple and easy. So it's just, it's understanding where there are a natural way that you're solving their problems. And that might be with your product for that just might be with information. And similarly, that student accommodation comes in, in all sorts of shapes and sizes, not as many as Sarah and I would like to solve, but they do come there is still different ranges and different affordability. So it's understanding kind of what is available in the market and educates them in that way so that they can make the
Deenie Lee 27:49
right choice.
Sarah Canning 27:49
But also, when we're working on some campaigns at the moment with clients and the messaging for people who are within the building who can rebook for the following year, it's a very different message to the people who have never even seen the building who are new to it. The message that incoming applicants, students who are currently, 17 year old A level students is very different to a 25 year old post-grad student coming from China, you've got, you know, there shouldn't be one marketing message, and that, again, is understanding and we, the first thing we do with a client, and I'm sure you're the same is kind of is delve into what they're currently doing. And to do that we have we call it a marketing audit. So we'll look at the demographic who's in the building. Now, where did they come from? Where did they find the building? What marketing tools do they use? What age are they? What countries did they come from? And then only then can you decide what what the mix is and who you're actually targeting? And that's kind of that's at the very, very basic level of the marketing department and what they should be doing when marketing to their audience.
Ayo Abbas 28:56
Do people have that level of data or they don't?
Sarah Canning 28:59
They do a lot
Sarah Canning 29:01
of people. And again, we've done some research into this with marketers, a lot of them don't know where it sits or who's responsible for it. And it might be that within an organisation, it's a financial analyst that has that at the moment. They have it somewhere but the marketers aren't necessarily asking the right people the right questions. It might be sat with the people who deal with bookings, and it might not be sat with marketing, but how can a marketer create a campaign if they don't know who they're creating a campaign for?
Ayo Abbas 29:31
Yeah, or who's booking or or where they're coming from? Because yeah, cuz then actually, you're not talking to the right people or understanding who they are. So yeah, I guess it does all boil down to target and just targeting and understanding them who they are, isn't it? I mean, it's, I guess it's basic marketing but it's I know the obvious doesn't always happen.
Sarah Canning 29:49
In the industry and to be quite frank why Deenie and I have ended up where we are is a lot of the private rented sector and probably , residential sales maybe had a bit of a disbanded a lot of the senior marketers. So there are a lack of marketing directors. There's some fantastic junior marketers out there. But what we found from our research is they're being managed by Operations Directors. And what that means is that they haven't got any marketing leadership. And without that, it doesn't allow the junior marketers to understand what is possible from marketing, to have some leadership. I mean, me and Deenie have always said, we have pointy elbows and we always did with, whenever industry, we will work our way into those meetings, whether people like it or not.
Ayo Abbas 30:43
Banging on that door, knock, knock, knock
Sarah Canning 30:47
Development managers do not want us in those meetings. But we will be there but junior marketers haven't got that confidence, or that experience or that knowledge, to say, that sounds like an interesting meeting, or, you know, oh, you know, I want to do, you're thinking of building there, but we've had some really negative feedback about that area, you know, so we, you know, that's the other thing is that marketers need to be given the tools and the authority and the responsibility and be given the confidence to be able to find all this out, rather than just we don't want marketing departments to be implementers and to be siloed, and that's what we're trying to do is, is give people and you know, we worked really hard with our clients on developing their teams, this isn't about us coming in and storming across all of their in house marketing teams, we want to work with them, and provide that leadership that they may, that they may not have in-house, through, through no fault of their own. But if they're not being managed and developed by marketers, then they're not going to, we're curious, we're analyzers, where we're challenging, and we're creative. And that should be the characteristic of the marketing team. And they should be encouraged to do all that.
Deenie Lee 32:03
As I said, I
Deenie Lee 32:03
think we're very clear that marketing can't impact stuff that they don't know about. And if they're not in the room, they don't know about it, and therefore they can't impact it. And marketers can have an impact across departments and across the business. And if you're keeping them hidden, then you're not getting the most out of them. Basically,
Ayo Abbas 32:20
I think the thing you don't realise is even when you start off as a junior marketer, the level of access you can sometimes get to directors and senior people I know, when I when I worked at Mace, for example, when people would just be like, oh, you know, the CEO, it's like, yeah, you know, I work with him. I have regular conversations, I know what he likes, and it's like, but I guess people don't always realise that that's access you can have as a marketer and should have. And it's just by being at that table and being curious, but also your right as we all need support to bring people up to that level. Because I mean, that's, that's ideally what you want is we want to be part of that organisation and helping to drive it forward, and not being afraid to challenge.
Sarah Canning 33:00
We joke that the word that is used the most in kind of offices with a marketing team is the word just, can you just send out that email? Can you just do a social post? Can you just make that Word document that pretty?
Ayo Abbas 33:18
I know, I know, it just makes my blood boil.
Sarah Canning 33:22
I was once
33:23
given a packet of crayons as a Secret Santa present as
Ayo Abbas 33:28
I would have found out who did that and I would have thrown it.
Sarah Canning 33:33
It made me feel a little bit sick. But if marketers aren't given the permission to elevate themselves within a company. That is what people think about marketing is I heard it at conference the other week, someone said almost word word for word. And it was about sustainability. Well, if you let marketers take charge, they'll make it look pretty. But they won't have the depth. No. I mean,
Ayo Abbas 34:02
no, no, no. That's greenwash. What do you mean by that? Can you expand that definition? That
34:09
meeting? Yeah, I want to be involved in that because, okay, maybe it will have a lack of depth if they're not involved in those conversations and don't understand where it's coming from. But sustainability is a great example of that. And we're working through some projects at the moment. But, you know, how is a building built were the marketers ever told, because actually, if the marketeers know how a building was built, and that can ask the questions to pull out the key sustainability messages, then they can create a fantastic B2B communications campaign around that and convert that into some B2C messaging. If they don't know that if they don't know what the supply chain is, if they don't know where things were produced, if they don't know what the materials were. If they don't know what the carbon footprint was, then they have they have nothing. And then there is a lack of depth. So they've got ought to be, you know, as Deenie said, invited to meetings in all levels in all departments, and be given the permission to do it. And it might be that it starts small it might be, can I just sit in that meeting and just observe with a notebook. And then I build up the confidence. And I'll start, you know, and I'll start contributing. But as marketing directors, we were around the board table, we have access to those conversations, if you learn so much, don't you from that? Yeah. And it's all those different departments, if you don't have a marketing director, or you don't have a marketing director who's been given permission to sit around the board table, then those messages aren't being filtered down to the junior marketers, who are the ones who are creating the messages and the cons.
Deenie Lee 35:41
You can't be the mouthpiece of an organisation without being at the centre of the organisation. And I think that's the key. I mean, everyone knows marketing is mouthpiece marketing tells the world what your product does. But if they don't understand the detail of what's in your product, or what you're doing, I mean, I think the frustration that we get, but we should not run better, because it's fiscally so much Brilliant stuff. But if your marketing team don't know about it, then it's not being told to the world.
Ayo Abbas 36:04
Exactly. You're not capitalising on it, you don't you're using it, not taking it and actually using it externally. And I think the amount of stuff as well, I mean, I always find like the amount of stuff that lives on like an intranet. Why do you just care about sharing it to your peers but nobody outside? It's just this resource of amazing stuff. But yeah, it's so funny. But I think the whole thing about bringing on the next gen and getting marketers to be, I guess, more skilled and more confident and become those future leaders, right? Because that's what we need, we're going to take over the world, I'm
Sarah Canning 36:41
gonna say I, you know, we want Junior marketers to listen to your podcasts and our podcast, because they're gonna learn that, but I think they feel that they need permission to educate themselves, or take an hour out of their data, to upskill themselves and to listen to this content and to and to learn, you know, and I guess that's kind of why we came into this predominantly, is because we saw that there was a gap. And we want like this as the younger generation to learn and develop their skills. And if they, if they're not being given that support internally, you know, then there's so many resources, you know, externally, and that they can use, and they
Ayo Abbas 37:15
they're not all costly. You're absolutely right. And I think that's one of the reasons I do this podcast is I want people to understand how to do marketing better. And that's mainly for marketers, but also for people in house in businesses clever think, actually, if you're a one man band or small business, there's a lot you can do to actually make your marketing better. So yeah, and it's just talking about it in in normal language, because it's not cloaked in you know, what is it? What is it? It's magical, you know, mystical art, which I don't think it is. But so in terms of trends for 2020, free as we are coming up to the end of the year, like November, is there anything particular in the kind of built around in that kind of sector that you think we kind of need to be thinking about? So definitely cost of living is the main issue and how you tackle that. But is there any other rising trends that we should be aware of?
Sarah Canning 37:59
We try, I guess, we don't want to refer to them as trends, because it should be intrinsic to the buildings. But you know, there's a lot of work going on in the background with regard to sustainability and not greenwashing in them not being buzzwords, you know, so really, really thinking about how buildings are constructed, and the longevity of both the products and the life cycle. It's not necessarily happening, I'm not sure that it will see massive changes in 2023. But the work is going on in the background. You know, and that's, and that's the main thing, really, I think, from a product point of view. I think in the sector that we work in, it's a bit like steering a massive ship, it happens slowly. And the things that will be built next year in 2023. will be complete were in planning three years ago. Yeah. And so it's, the changes that we should be seeing next year, we won't see for another two, three years after that. That sounds really negative. No, but
Ayo Abbas 39:00
that's a good point. Actually, I guess it's that's the lead time, isn't it? It's the lead time for a building. And, you know, a lot of even when you look at major projects, like you know, Elizabeth Line, it was being designed 20 years ago. So it's like, how do you futureproof what you're building now for the you know, and it's that issue, which is going across developments isn't it? It's like you're building for the future. Now? It's kind of that weird dichotomy.
Sarah Canning 39:24
Yeah, I think the other thing that we saw in our research that we think could be implemented a bit easier is the whole thing about wellbeing and think for so long people have been focused on external factors and events. We see this particularly, build to rent have the most amazing community events and student accommodation do as well. And actually, the students and the graduates in our survey have said, they just want a good night's sleep. They want a great mattress, they want soundproofing, they want blackout blinds, like what some of those got are so easy to implement, you know, a massive difference to their residence where well being, you know, stick of blackout blinds, you know, have some really great processes and policies around sound and put a good mattress in. And that could be done tomorrow, you know, and it could certainly be done next year. And then you've got a whole
Ayo Abbas 40:13
messaging around, we've designed these rooms to be in the best way for your wellbeing. It's like, that's your messaging isn't
Sarah Canning 40:19
everyone knows that everybody who's had a good night's sleep is far better able to deal with the challenges that come their way. It's not going to solve all of them, but it gives them a fighting chance.
Ayo Abbas 40:30
Fantastic, so. So I guess a lot of what you do is b2c isn't a business to consumer. In a way, I'm a B2B marketer. So I've always kind of done the whole corporate selling to other corporates. Do you see any kind of big differences between the two? Who wants it?
Deenie Lee 40:49
I mean, there are obviously very obvious differences. But ultimately, I think, when we talk about B2C and B2B, we're all humans, talking to the human, whoever they are. So I think it's about understanding that customer. And yes, it is business to business. But in that business is made up of people. So really, in reality, as long as you understand who you're talking to, what problem you're solving for them, and how you're going to talk to them, the mechanism of getting there is the same, it's just probably you're doing it on mass, which is where, you know, maybe more segmentation might come in, and they'd say, because you're talking to a larger subset of people. But I, you know, I've worked a lot in B2B in my career. And I think, ultimately, as you just said, it's all about your messaging. And it's about getting messaging, right, it's understanding who the customer is, and what is going to be the thing that's going to influence them to know that they need what you're trying to sell.
Ayo Abbas 41:54
I think the only thing I guess it's the overall the context of B2B is that understanding that things take longer to develop, and all of that kind of thing that you're actually working to, but I think that's probably the only thing I'd overlay on to that. But you're right, humans, human, are all people don't bore us to death. Okay, so on to my final question. So, we've talked a lot about research. So are there any kind of particular tools or things if people want to kind of do more research? What how can I get started,
Sarah Canning 42:23
I think it's looking at who is the best person to do that, and for businesses to have a budget for it, it costs money. And I think a lot of people, you know, yes, you can send out a survey, to your, you know, to your customer base, or your database. And in theory, that doesn't have to cost any money. But it costs time to put those questions together and really think them through, it takes time to segment the data. And it certainly takes time to analyse the data. And it takes time to work out what to do with that data, and what messages and who it's for. So if a company doesn't have the people that are the right people to have the time and the resource to do it, and if you don't know, then you need to look externally to do that. We're not a research business. And we're very keen to point that out. We certainly don't have, years and years of university experience to say that, but we understand customers, but it's, you know, there are plenty of companies out there who will provide the right research solution for your particular part of the industry or your particular goals. You know, and that, you know, budget is, is key, really, nobody can can do it without a budget. And there, we were amazed here, we we've used an independent data set that we've had to pay organisations for that data to make sure it is a reputable data set. And it's the right demographic. Because if you'd like we've been saying all along, if you ask the people within your industry, or the people have already bought your product, you're not going to get the full range of answers. And so yeah, I think that it's strategic, the name is in our in our business name, the property marketing strategists. It's about strategic, you know, is it? What is it that you want to find out and work backwards from that? Now, you can always do quick polls, that's research. No, I've done many in my career that just let's put something out on Facebook and ask people, do they prefer A or B? It's not scientific, but it gives you a maybe that's still still research, you know, as a customer service survey. That's still research. But like I said, the end result has got to be if you don't get the answers you expected, what are you going to do with those answers? And an organisation's got to invest the time and effort into committing to making those you know, those changes. If you've spent the time and the effort on doing the research, then you've got to spend the time and the effort or working through those solutions.
Ayo Abbas 44:56
Fantastic. And on that note, I'm going to say thank you so much for coming on the show. Sarah and Deenie, it's been awesome. And where can people find out more about you?
Sarah Canning 45:03
The best
45:04
place to find out about us is on our website, which is www.propertymarketingstrategist.co.uk . And we have lots of resources on there for our research we also have on social media on LinkedIn, and Instagram and we also have a YouTube channel and a podcast.
Ayo Abbas 45:21
Yes to the podcast not that I'm biased or anything! It's like your podcast. Anyway. Thank you so much. And yes, I will write all the kinds of contacts for you guys in in the notes as well in the shownotes. Take care. Bye. Thanks.
Ayo Abbas 45:45
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the shownotes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abbasmarketing.com And of course if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
