Ep. 21 People, Projects and Digital Technology with Stephen Melville and James Solly, Format Engineers
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Marketing In Times of Recovery. I’m your host Ayo Abbas, a built environment marketing consultant and founder of Abbas Marketing.
Today’s guests are the highly talented structural engineers Stephen Melville and James Solly who run Format Engineers based in Bath. I know both of them from when I worked at Ramboll many moons ago.
In our discussion, we talk about a host of things from:
how they stand out from traditional structural engineering firms
why they love being involved through all stages of a project and why they feel it’s so important
and finally the types of marketing tactics that have worked for them.
If you’re a regular listener to the show – make sure you subscribe so you never miss out on an episode and help us to spread the word.
This episode was recorded on Thurs April 01 2021.
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Resources
Format Engineers
Abbas Marketing
Stephen's RIBA Journal article
Transcript.
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hi, and welcome to Marketing In Times of Recovery. Here's part three of my interview with Amy, Nikita and Dave, if you've not checked out parts I and II, make sure you do before listening to this one, enjoy. How have you found LinkedIn for your clients Amy?
Amy Edwards 00:23
I think it's been really useful. Actually, I think there's been a really big pull towards it, I think, you know, like, the other two have said, it's just, there's less engagement, like, he might not have the likes and things that are there. But what I find really interesting is looking at, like, clickthrough rates back to your website, like, I find that really fascinating, you might have had four likes, but you've had, you know, 50, people click through to read an article on your website. Or people just in real life, when you see them again, often will refer back to what they've seen on LinkedIn. So it is interesting, I think, it is a great way to start building relationships. And I think it's a bit of an untapped resource. I think people just aren't really using it very much like I know I tap in and out of LinkedIn, Instagram, I tend to be on there all the time. But LinkedIn, I kind of get a bit bored with it. There's some people who are like, voracious on there. And it's boring, you know, they're not providing really good content, but for the ones who are providing great content. I keep wanting to follow them, right, and I want to share their work. And so I think it is about creating engaging content and doing stuff that's of value, making sure it's right for your audience. But I find when the clients that I'm working with, who do that tend to get really good work out of it. One in particular for us has had, you know, I think they've three times as busy as what they were pre-COVID, you know, like, and they put a big push throughout 2020 on doing LinkedIn. And, and it was because they talk directly to their audience, you know, that's where their audience lives. And that's where they're on every single day. So, it worked for them. It was the right channel.
Ayo Abbas 02:00
I mean, I think that especially with LinkedIn, I think is the LinkedIn lurker isn't it, you know, that person who doesn't respond to your posts, but they're there, they're looking, they see your comments, they see you exactly, and they may approach you directly. And that's the thing, and I kind of think there is that thing where people don't realise it's like, oh, no one's engaging with my post. It's like, people are still registering, you're there. And I think that's the key thing about, you know, you stay in front of mind as well. So I mean, I love LinkedIn, it's, it's my probably favourite platform out of all of them for me personally. Yeah. But I'm
Amy Edwards 02:31
thinking too, I think it's, you know, it's like you said, it's the ones who are the who are the stalkers on social media who don't actually interact. They're not engaging, but they're there, and they're watching all the time. And I think that's why consistency is so important. And it will continue to be important. If you know the way that we're going and the digital platforms and how they're all tracking, I think consistency is going to win over everything else.
Dave Sharp 02:54
Okay. Yeah, the people, the people that are consistent like Nikita, like I, I know that if I don't log into LinkedIn for two weeks, and I log in the first thing I'm going to see my foot feed is like Nikita's latest post that has like, 85 comments. I'm like, because that's gonna be right at the top. Because in my network, even though I've got, you know, probably, I don't know, a couple 1000 LinkedIn connections or whatever, I would say probably like 50 of them may be even less are posting as consistently as Nikita. Yeah. So it's like,
Nikita Morell 03:24
yeah, so I'm sorry.
Dave Sharp 03:26
Yeah, no, that's it. I mean, so I think that's what I'm saying is k, just like, if you just do, you can get you don't have to do that much. And I think it can have a big impact on LinkedIn.
Ayo Abbas 03:36
Absolutely. I think something like 5% of people who actually registered actually kind of post content on there. So that's a really small pool, really, when you think about it. So there's a huge amount of opportunity on the platform there. And there still is.
Nikita Morell 03:49
And when it comes to consistency, like it might seem like I'm doing it a lot, but I actually only post probably once every two or three weeks. So it's like it isn't it doesn't even have to be like every day or every week. So that consistency is just like I know, like probably once now, nowadays, it's once every three weeks. Probably gonna play
Ayo Abbas 04:09
when something's riled you.
Nikita Morell 04:14
Well, just a bit of a spoiler that someone said to me today, like I got an email from a client saying, "Can you just write my website by the end of the week?" And I was like, it's Thursday. And I posted about how I don't sit down and write.
Dave Sharp 04:28
I love it.
Ayo Abbas 04:28
That's a process to your fantastic messaging magic.
Amy Edwards 04:33
By the end of the week, that's too funny.
Ayo Abbas 04:35
Yeah. And it's like I know, it does make me laugh though. But you're right, because your project and website projects, it's like, Okay, see, what's your messaging? Who are you targeting and like kind of stare at you tumbleweeds?
Nikita Morell 04:51
I will say like every post like and hopefully it comes across and I guess Dave and Amy and you know, you can tell me about every post that I do right there even though it is quite controversial. Always try and have like a takeaway, like some sort of a something that they can apply to their website. So if I'm like, slagging on, like call to actions or something that I'll say, like, you know, this is what you can do, and you can immediately apply it to your website, or I guess it's that, and I tell my clients that as well, like architecture should be trying to educate, you know, or, like, impart some sort of a value. Like, I'm not just ranting for the sake of it. Like there's always like,
Ayo Abbas 05:22
a point to the rant.
Nikita Morell 05:23
Hopefully.
Ayo Abbas 05:28
on social media, if I see really good kind of action points, I screengrab it, I look at stuff for inspiration for how people frame stuff. But you're right, and I think always have those takeaways. And it's quite for me, you know, I get inspiration from loads of different places, and you kind of just, you know, take little snapshots of stuff, and then come back to it later. And yeah, your your posts always have a, this is how you can do a CTA well. And then you show which is, which is brilliant, because that gives people an idea on what they get me doing. So it's always useful content. But it was not the comments. So in terms of kind of, I guess, practice websites, let's just have a quick chat around those. So are they kind of any trends that you've seen in websites and what people are doing now I remember that there was a time probably about 10 years ago, when everyone's websites were spinning. And that made me really dizzy. It was just like, so much motion. But nowadays, in terms of practice websites, are they kind of particular trends that you're seeing people people are kind of favouring at the moment, Nikita
Nikita Morell 06:26
Um, yeah, I mean, like, probably David can speak, or Amy can speak to this better than I can. But I mean, in terms of trends, I'm hoping that the trend is to have a little bit more copy on it. So there are more words like a value proposition or a tagline that really, you know, I think, research shows you've got 10 seconds or something to grab their attention. So really, kind of grabbing it, and also moving away from this idea of it just being like a project portfolio where you click on it, and there's just like a grid of project images, everything I mentioned. Yeah, it is more about the storytelling, I've got some great examples that I'll share with you, Dave. Good project descriptions that, you know, tell, tell the story. You know, really drawing before and after shots and sketches. And you know, as Amy was saying, like showing the process behind it. So I've got, I think I'm seeing a lot more of that. Yeah, I think just moving away from just project project project more about the people behind the firm, because at the end of the day, like clients are hiring the team and the people rather than the name, I guess. Yeah.
Ayo Abbas 07:36
Amy what trends are you seeing in terms of websites and what people are doing in the article world? Oh, well,
Amy Edwards 07:41
I'm finding at the moment, we're redeveloping a couple of websites at the moment. And both of them again, very, like heavy people focus, like Nikita said, you know, it's definitely the personality behind the practice, from the like, from look and feel, I think a lot of them are trying to simplify and get lots more whitespace. And be less, maybe less bold with their logos and things like that. I think they're trying to make it about about the work and writing about the work and the process of the work and the people behind the practice. So I find I'm finding that's kind of what's happening. For me anyway, for the clients that I'm working with currently.
Ayo Abbas 08:21
And Dave, any trends that you're seeing any different or anything, particularly your clients do.
Dave Sharp 08:27
exactly, exactly what I mean, a caterer is saying, I think aesthetically, they're getting simpler. more chill, I think these websites are standard Finally, chill out. Because I think architects of architects websites have been doing way too much for a while. And I think like, even a vino, like, you know, when I when I met a new client, like, it's usually like, you know, nine out of 10 times, so just gonna have a simple Squarespace website. And I love that I think that's totally fine. I mean, brands are gonna go out and get, you know, custom branding and everything like that. But you know, you just want to keep things really simple and exactly what Nikita is saying about having more copy letting, letting copy actually do what it should do not being scared of having writing on your website, which I think is always this fear of, like, Are people actually going to read all this and like is that you know, I just don't want it to be lots of writing. It looks like um, there's always this deep set of concern. Again, I always interested in the psychology of like, why all architects think the same. And I think, you know, one of the things is sometimes it's like this idea of like, if I'm seen to be like trying too hard, it looks like I have to it looks like there must be something wrong with my work that I'm like trying this hard to like sell myself, right. There's always this kind of that kind of concern comes up but really, I think there's just, you know, architects websites have just been basically like information nutritionally lacking they're like McDonald's cheeseburgers. They're just like, there's like nothing there. There's nothing there. There's no protein, there's no nothing right? So you're just getting this like portfolio and like a colour palate and you're going like, Great. Okay, cool. What did I actually get from this website? Did I? Did I come here for? Did I come here for a reason? Seriously, as a visitor, was there a reason that I came here? Probably there was probably several things I wanted to know about this company. Let's not treat architects as like super special. They are companies at the end of the day, what did I want to know about this business? And what they do? Yeah. And they gave me nothing of it. Right. And that's the most annoying thing. So yeah, sorry, getting on a bit of a soapbox about it. But I think that like,
Ayo Abbas 10:29
How do they get away from the cheeseburger day. How do they get away from there?
Dave Sharp 10:32
I know exactly doing exactly what like Nikita and me talking about like, like, don't, don't rely on the visual as much and just start to think about well, I personally think like, how do you get the nutrition back in, think about the things that you actually just need to explain to people like, I'm not an expert copywriter by any means. But I generally like to try and get my clients thinking about, what information Did somebody come here looking for? And I know that's like, a little bit boring. But are you giving them what they're actually looking for? Like, I always like adding helpful pages to my clients. websites, like FAQ is like where you answer frequently asked questions.
Ayo Abbas 11:05
And that's the things that people ask you all the time. So you know, when someone comes up to you just note those down, okay, they asked me this they asked me that
Dave Sharp 11:12
The things people ask you all the time. I like project pages to have more information about the client and their brief. And some, you know, maybe some stuff that I can't see directly in the photos is like important. If they're a firm that does like a few things like say they do like houses and restaurants and you know, airports, I don't want their about page to have to try and address all three of those audiences. So I like them to have like individual pages that are devoted to each of those different areas so that they can write something about how we design airports, and they can write something about how we design restaurants, like I kind of want them to have a little bit more segmentation on their website as well. So yeah, those are just some of the things that I am I try to push for with my clients, I wouldn't say it's like an overall industry trend, but it's a trend in the people that I get to nag into doing what I want them to do. So. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's a big thing with the websites. So
Amy Edwards 12:06
sorry. I was thinking to at the copy, like I think what's interesting is, I think there's either there's, these people have these websites, or they're very, like portfolio driven, like he said, you know, it's all about the pictures, and that's it. Or then there's the ones that are really content heavy, but it's maybe not the right content, you know, like Nikita can probably spoke to that it's, I find, it's like you go into this thing where, you know, they've written three pages. And it's just three pages of just words. And it's very architectural, and it doesn't actually speak to the audience. And I think, like, use the words, but use it use it well, like an employ a copywriter like to spend money on that, because it's actually really useful. And it's the returns on that it's, it's going to far outweigh, you know, your diatribe on what architecture means to you. Like, it's just so boring for the audience. They just think, well, that's exactly why I don't want to work with an architect, because, you know, they're too far above me, I can't relate to them, it's, you know, how are they going to be able to create something for me or for my project that isn't about them.
Ayo Abbas 13:14
So any kind of tips on how to approach copywriting for architecture websites, Nikita that you think kind of fit if you did these three things, or to make it better? Yeah, the audience,
Nikita Morell 13:25
I think, the whole time, and that's why so I actually for my clients, you know, every marketer does, like this whole client, whether it's an avatar or a profile, or whatever you call it, like, you've got to have your ideal client in mind. And every time you write something, you have to think how are they going to respond to it? Is that the right language they use? So going back to my LinkedIn posts, which I'm about the product is more about that research. And that's what copywriters do is like, I would say, almost 60% is research and that 40 is writing. So every website copywriting project I do I interview five to 10 of their past clients, I sit on the phone, and I'm like, I ask them questions, you know, how did you find working with them? What were your objections before you started working? As he said, I'm, you know, that they might say, Oh, I just thought the architect would just not listen to me, or they just run with their own ideas, or they're trying to create an award winning house or something, and not really taking my needs into consideration, or whatever it is. So I pretty much you know, transcribe all our conversations, and then I sit there and I just think, okay, like what, you know, it's called voice of customer data, like, how can I pull this out and put it into words? So a lot goes on, behind the scenes to get to get those words, I think, going back to your question is one of the biggest thing they can really do is really get to know like, what type of clients do they want to keep working with? And how do those clients talk? Like, do these clients talk in archi babble? Or do they talk in just a normal conversation and as a really good tip, if you're, if you're an architect, and you know, you have to get to your website, copy and you kind of scared of that blank page, I always just say go into Google Docs. You know, click onto that voice typing tool and just start talking to your computer. Like, that's the best way to kind of to get that conversational, you know, write like you speak. So just start talking about your practice why you started it. And then that almost forms the basis of, if you copy, you know, don't sit there, try and be like, how can I sound smart? And that's when you just come out every day. You just sometimes just have to feel, you know, like yourself and right, like, you see, and that's when it won't, because I think another thing, that website, there's a lot of architects, I've, my clients will come back, you know, I want to be quite witty and bold, and that, then I'm talking to them, and they're so introverted. And I'm like, someone's gonna look at your website, and there's like bold colours and flashing and they're going to meet you, and you're like, so shy, like that causes mistrust and misalignment, right? Like, your website has to reflect who you are. So yeah,
Ayo Abbas 15:56
I've now got visions of someone in the corner who very grey. It's like, you know, this amazing website.
Dave Sharp 16:06
Because like, I also I also find this so frustrating when I'm like, let's we're getting into like the second half of the podcast. So we just get to sort of say what we find annoying about architects. I find this such an such a frustrating thing, when architects tell me about things that they've like intentionally left off the website, because they like don't really want clients to know about it. That makes me so angry, because it's just deceptive. And it makes it so hard to trust you. Like I've heard I've spoken architects that like like, say, for example, last year, they had to maybe let a couple of staff go, unfortunately, with a pandemic, or whatever. So they decided to like, delete their team page, because they don't want people to see that, like, we're a small company, we want them to think that we're big and serious. And it comes back to Nikita's point of like, you know, what happens when they walk in the office. So you're going to like, go down to the local theatre school to hire youngsters to like, go and sit in the desks and stuff and pretend to work like. There's there's no point being dishonest. And I think that, you know, people appreciate transparency. Yeah. And you know, in my own website, I try to any, anything I could literally think of sharing, I share it. And that may not be the best advice for everybody. But I like to operate on the principle that when somebody comes into my business to work with me, they know everything that I would tell them in a in a meeting or a conversation or if a fee proposal, I almost want my website to like, replace me as a salesperson. Yeah, and I'm in marketing. So I kind of have like cultural permission to do that. We're used to marketer having like, way to market websites, maybe architects can't go fully that way. But I think the more you put out there of yourself and what you're really like and what your business really does, and how you actually operate. If you are looking for a better quality clients, that's how you'll get them. Because they will come to you. And they will be already on the same page, share a similar philosophy, appreciate the same kind of work and already be accepting and having the right expectations of what you're going to do for them and what you do and what you don't do. And that's going to be the type of client that you go, oh my god, I'm so blessed to get to work with these amazing clients. And I don't have to do anything to convince them to work with me, my website has already done it. So I would I just think transparency is extremely important when it comes to your website and not hiding stuff. And Nikita, you just made me remember, like 1000s of clients telling me things that they like, where they just basically tried to do the opposite of whatever they really were. And it was it's just such a such a mistake.
Ayo Abbas 18:41
But it's whole authenticity thing again, isn't it, which I think is so important to people. But also if you're honest and open on who you are on socials and on your website, it helps qualify people, right. So by the time they come to you, they know what to expect saves your shedload the time and then when you start winning when
Nikita Morell 18:59
Even the contact page I always tell my clients like that is like your bouncer like that don't just say you know, name and then message, like put in fields like really test them like because otherwise you get all these enquiries, you probably spend half a day responding to them, and they're not even like good leads. So you know, ask them what their budget is. Ask them, you know, describe have you worked with an architect before like describe your project in 100 words, like make it really hard for them. The harder the better the quality, as Dave said clients will come through.
Ayo Abbas 19:31
Yeah, yeah, it saves you a ton of time as well, isn't it? I mean, I think that is the key thing. So, my next question is, so I'm gonna ask you another controversial question. So do you think marketing and selling are seen as a dirty word by the architecture profession? I'm going to throw that one out, Nikita.
Nikita Morell 19:56
I think look, it's changing, I would say I mean, genralising a lot, but the emerging architects that are coming up, that have kind of just, you know, maybe a bit, not being ageist, but like a bit younger, they may be have been exposed to it, they're a bit more adapted, I find my clients that have been in the industry for 25 years or more, they're the ones that maybe still seeing marketing and selling is a little bit dirty. Whereas I think the merging architects are quite, I mean, they've grown up in an era and they've been educated at school and stuff, where they're like, it's part of it, it's part of running, and they run their practices more like a business, you know, with Archibiz and all these great resources out there. I think, hopefully, that mindset shift, if you do see it like a business, then you are open to, you know, marketing is a function of that. So
Ayo Abbas 20:44
just like HR or anything else that you need to do, yep. Dave is marketing a dirty word marketing and selling?
Dave Sharp 20:51
Give me more time to think about it go to Amy.
Amy Edwards 20:53
I think, look, I think it is I think they always think that is that it is a dirty word. And but I think there's a few different reasons for that. Like, I think, you know, Nikita is bright, like a lot of the younger practices that are coming through in emerging practices, you know, they're very open to it. And then they're also open to taking advice about it, you know, they're not, they're not shy about learning more about marketing, and how they can make it better for their business. I think I do find some of the the, the older practices, or maybe the the practices have been around 20 plus years, they tend to overthink everything, you know, like they're scared about, they're scared about what does it mean for my, you know, my reputation? What does it going to say about me? What does it mean about the work that we're going to do moving forward? And actually, what it comes down to is just getting your work out there, like people, just you've just got to keep moving forward. Like I think, you know, it's why we all struggle as marketers with email newsletters with clients, because they want to make it perfect, you know, that you're aiming for perfection. And I don't think it's ever going to fit the perfect ideal that they have in mind, you know, it's never going to be 100%. And I also just think, you know, in, in today's day and age of being in a digital environment, you know, things are every 24 hours, things are refreshed and changed over all the time, you know, things, yes, you've got to be consistent. And yes, that's going to be memorable. But, you know, it's sort of forgotten about 24 hours later. And then it's like, well, what's happening next, you know, it's like, what's, what's coming next? And don't be so afraid of just getting your ideas out there and testing new things, is probably my advice.
Ayo Abbas 22:43
So Dave, is marketing and selling a dirty word to architects?
Dave Sharp 22:48
Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, like 100%. I think I think like there are, there are architects that view it probably in a more in a more positive light, and probably have a better understanding of how good marketing can be and how good marketing can be done, they've maybe paid more attention to that, or they're better educated. So, they have a more of an open mind those ones that Nikita is referring to, but for a lot of architects that don't, you know, they're not really observing much that's going on in the marketing world, they tend to notice bad marketing a lot more. And they sort of associate marketing with bad marketing, that there is only bad marketing, they don't really think about good marketing, like what does good marketing look like? Yeah. And when they look at the architects, they like, they don't really connect this idea of, oh their marketing is actually influencing me, but how are they doing it? How did I How did I form that conclusion? I haven't met them. I haven't been to any of their buildings. Yet, I still think they're my favourite architects secretly. Right? So how so like, we don't, we don't really dwell on good marketing. So I think there's that factor. And there's this bit of a perception that, you know, the the worse you are as an architect, in terms of your, your, your mad drawing board skills, you know, the more architects, the more marketing you have to do. So the more marketing you're into, and the more you invest in marketing, the worse er, as an architect, so this is kind of like there's a stigma that's associated with it as well. And, you know, it's just, I think, I think there is a there is some truth to the idea that your work is the single biggest differentiator in like your marketing success, in my opinion, I think that architects should be striving to do the best work that they possibly can. But we recognise that, you know, architects aren't in full control of everything. And sometimes the architects that seem to put out the best work are the ones that it turns out, they were their own client, or their client was their brother, or whatever. Like there's always a lot of that sort of thing, because they did get full control. And you know, not every architect is going to get full control. They're not always going to, they're going to strive but they may not always get their work executed as perfectly as it possibly could.
Ayo Abbas 24:50
Yeah, depends on the procurement model, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And
Dave Sharp 24:53
then what we want to think about holistically is marketing involves, you know, I like to try and work with my clients on many are thinking out outside of just like social media and email and website and stuff like that, but thinking all the way back to like how you pick the right clients that are going to, that are going to try to or how you filter for bad clients, how you pick the right clients, how you're going to create an environment, that's going to make it as easy as possible for you to do really good work, because that's kind of where the marketing starts, you know, and then going through to just really investing in quality, I think in your photography and your video and stuff like that. Some architects want to explore other channels, and they're more game to do that, like where it where it is maybe a little bit more 21st century stuff, like, you know, the the lead magnets and whatever or running Facebook ads, like that stuff is a little bit more marketing ease, but you know, yeah, but but i think i think if you're if you're really business driven, you shouldn't be limited by like, just hoping your portfolio turns out, you know, the way that you hoped it would, because you know, it may still be brilliant, but no one wants to do more, you might have loftier goals, you might have higher aspirations. And so no one, no one comes to a marketing consultant, because they're absolutely satisfied with exactly the quality of the client I have right now. And the quantity of the client I have right now. There's always I want to achieve more I want more clients or better clients in some real practical a specific way. Yeah, how do I do that. And that's where marketing comes in. Because marketing can help you to do that. And so if you are like driven and you do have goals, and you're aspiring to do bigger and better things with your practice, then marketing is gonna be a really good way for you to do it.
Ayo Abbas 26:26
Totally agree. And I also think it's the thing of, we kind of come at it from a different angle, and we ask them lots more questions and interrogate them dare I say it and I think that's an important part of what we do is, you know, to try to challenge their thinking, and actually, have you considered this and I, then that's an important part of the process, in terms of what we do. Okay, so, um, so I think I'm gonna go on to my final question, actually. So what one tip would you give to business leaders now about how to make a dent, as we head towards kind of recovery and into kind of the rest of 21 2021 and 2022, I'm gonna give that one to Amy.
Amy Edwards 27:14
I think the biggest thing is about being consistent, but also measuring what you're doing and adapting, you know, don't be frightened of trying and testing new things. But definitely be open to adaptation of what you're doing, and how that's going to help you move your practice forward. I think if you you know, if you're looking at a 12 month strategy, I think you're probably in the wrong place. You know, I think it's got to be shorter term, maybe it's a three month strategy that you follow through on and then re measure and adapt to what you're doing to the market. And I think that's the only way that people can recover out of this is is to keep evolving as a practice.
Ayo Abbas 27:59
And what's your one tip, Nikita in terms of people coming out of kind of recovery? And the crazy year, we've had?
Nikita Morell 28:07
Yeah, I think we touched on it. But it would probably be like, don't try and do it yourself, because you're not going to find the time that you need to at least recruit someone to help you stay accountable. Again, as Amy said, consistency is key. So you know, hire a marketing expert to come in and take care of it for you. So it's just one less thing you have to, you know, have hanging at the bottom of your to do list.
Ayo Abbas 28:32
Absolutely. And finally, on to you, Dave, what is your one tip. So as we head into recovery,
Dave Sharp 28:37
it's gonna be a sort of an extension of niketas, in a sense of like, one thing that I've realised over the last probably it's become so important over the last sort of 6-12 months is that if you are working on your marketing, it's not like the other tasks that you have when you're running an architecture practice, because it is so based on doing like a pretty consistent amount of hours on a given monthly basis. Like maybe you do two hours a month on it. And you should pretty much be doing that every month. And as an architect, I guarantee 99% of you do not have systems in place in your office designed towards getting you doing a set amount of something each month. It's always based on priority and urgency because you have deadlines and you completely work around deadlines. Your marketing does not have deadlines. So you need to make sure that you're not using your regular system that you use to keep yourself accountable and figure out what you're doing for your marketing. It has to be separate. So I recommend I recommend getting making sure you're using a calendar and actually going ahead of the month ahead and blocking out marketing time. Then once you've done that and protected it, then figure out what you're going to do with that time to get the maximum effect out of that time. That's like having a great idea of what you're going to do is so much less important than actually budgeting that time and doing it and also working with somebody who can help you like Nikita said like and You know, that was helpful in terms of what you do in that time, right, that's where you're going to get a lot more bang for your buck if you've got somebody who's helping to guide you. And like, it's like having a personal trainer at the gym. You can go in there and just start like picking up dumbbells and start pushing machines around or whatever. But there's somebody who has helped who's helped other people and who can say, you should be doing this, this and this in this time and then later on, we'll move on to this, this and this right, so but I think the first thing to do is get that time available because you cannot completely outsource your marketing as an architect, that would be a massive mistake in my opinion. So you're gonna ultimately need to be accountable for it and then make the time. Brilliant.
Ayo Abbas 30:46
Thanks so much for listening to the latest episode of Marketing In Times of Recovery, and I'm your host Ayo Abbas. If you want to find out more about the BI weekly show do check out the show notes which will give you more information about who the guests are and all the things we've covered. And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, make sure you hit the subscribe button so you don't miss out on an episode. Until next time, bye.
