Ep. 21 People, Projects and Digital Technology with Stephen Melville and James Solly, Format Engineers
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Marketing In Times of Recovery. I’m your host Ayo Abbas, a built environment marketing consultant and founder of Abbas Marketing.
Today’s guests are the highly talented structural engineers Stephen Melville and James Solly who run Format Engineers based in Bath. I know both of them from when I worked at Ramboll many moons ago.
In our discussion, we talk about a host of things from:
how they stand out from traditional structural engineering firms
why they love being involved through all stages of a project and why they feel it’s so important
and finally the types of marketing tactics that have worked for them.
If you’re a regular listener to the show – make sure you subscribe so you never miss out on an episode and help us to spread the word.
This episode was recorded on Thurs April 01 2021.
Rate and review us
Please don’t forget to rate and review us if you love the show - you’ll need to head to Apple podcasts to do this and thank you as it helps us to spread the word
Resources
Format Engineers
Abbas Marketing
Stephen's RIBA Journal article
Transcript.
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello, and welcome to Marketing In Times of Recovery. This episode goes live on Friday, July the second and the next day, Saturday July 3 is a very special day as it's our first birthday. So, before we kick off the show, I wanted to run a little competition for my UK based listeners. I've had some rather nifty Marketing In Times of Recovery branded mugs made up in honour of our birthday. If you want to get hold of one, all you need to do is leave us a review, ideally, on Apple podcasts, or Castbox. If you're not on there, just say what you think of the show or a particular episode or me as the host. Anything you want, really. And before you hit post, take a quick screengrab of it, then post it. Then share what your screengrab on social media and tag me. I'm on Instagram and Twitter and LinkedIn so you can easily find me, I have a bass, which is about A-Y-O, A-B-B-A-S. Then once you've tagged me, I will drop you a line to get your details and your mark will be winging its way to you soon after. If you want more details on the competition. This can be found on my website, which is www.abbasmarketing.com d. And I've got 15 mugs to giveaway. Anyway, that's enough of the competition. And now on with the show. Today, my guests are the highly talented engineers, Stephen Melville and James Solly, who run Format Engineers. In our discussion, we talk about a host of things from how they stand out from traditional structural engineering firms, why they love being involved throughout the life stages of a project, and why they feel it's so important. And then we finally talk about some of the kind of marketing tactics that have worked for them as a small practice. If you're a regular listen to this show, make sure you do subscribe so you don't miss out on an episode. And now I'll stop talking and let you get on with listening. Enjoy.
Ayo Abbas 02:10
Hi, Steven. Hi, James. Welcome to marketing times of crisis. So my first question to you is, I'm going to start with you, Steven, can you give me an introduction, Introduction to format engineers, who you are and your role?
Stephen Melville 02:24
Format Engineers are primarily structural engineers, but structural engineers, I suppose coming at it from a slightly different angle in that we feel traditional structural engineering is all very well. But engineers have a great skill sets in geometry, coding, mathematics, science, etc. We're all brought up with a very broad science based background. And we like to apply those to engineering, we like to go further than traditional engineering and apply some original research. To do our own coding to help architects and other designers and things. We don't structural engineering it or at least not traditional structural engineering. So that's been our ethos. Since we started, we did start in 2014. So we're relatively young practice. But in all ready, we've grown to the point of reasonable size. And I suppose in terms of the kind of work we do, it's 50% international, I'd say and the remaining 50% probably split between local and national work, and it's a huge range of stuff. Yeah, I'm sure James will have more of what we do in detail.
James Solly 03:42
Yeah, I am, I am the other director, the non founding director of Format. And I joined the practice now full time, oh gosh, two years ago. Yeah. Having been involved for throughout the sort of creation of Format from a distance before that.I think we largely we both work on a mix of everything. But I'd say our projects split down into some housing projects and like high design, like very well and very carefully designed housing projects. Yeah, we do a lot of art and sculpture, which is a big part of the workflow that we really, really enjoy being part of. And we do quite a lot which of fabrication detailing and design for like bespoke metal staircases and things like that. So that gives us a real understanding of the final detail of of creation, not just taking up to sort of scheme level and passing off to a fabricator, we get involved throughout that process to literally installing things on site.
Ayo Abbas 04:45
So you actually go and visit the sites as well and you're involved in that kind of aspect of making sure it's doing what is meant to do
James Solly 04:50
when global pandemics allow, then yes.
Stephen Melville 04:57
I think it's worth saying that's an important part of our make up as well, which is, you know, we get involved in very unusual, challenging projects. But if you take the stance, that we're just going to do the concept design, and then you don't gain if you don't gain the experience of how these things are actually built, and installed then losing vital feedback and how you design it. So yeah, we are, I think that's one of the taglines, one of our marketing says, we're equally interested in the act of making as we are in the act of designing, because one informs the other.
Ayo Abbas 05:31
Absolutely. And do clients really like the fact that you're involved all the way through, I'd imagine they would wouldn't they?
James Solly 05:38
Yeah, I think it's also interesting talking to our peers. And so speaking to some professionals working in within education, where I also also sit sometimes. And they were saying it's interesting looking at our firm as one that if you consider the traditional line of sort of design, then engineering, then fabrication, we've sort of grown gently outwards in both directions. And we do very much crossover with design. And we do very much crossover with fabrication, which means sometimes we're the group that are informing the early stage design of fabrication criteria. So because we have that experience in the fabrication side, we get to do some early input on the requirements of fabrication, before you end up getting an actual fabricator involved. And that's from learning from the variety of amazing fabricators, we work with really regularly, you know, we try and learn as much as we can from them.
Ayo Abbas 06:35
Yeah, I can imagine the early stage involvement also is a huge benefit to the client, isn't it? Because it's like, you get in early, that's when you actually, you know, the design is more on track of what is actually going to be built, isn't it? So it must be quite a huge benefit of value to them.
Stephen Melville 06:50
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, clients want to employ engineers and designers that would be I suppose, as a safe pair of hands that can develop their vision. And they also want people to you know, have skin in the game and not, you know, cop out halfway through because they're only doing concept designs. So I think it is a, you know, clients very much do appreciate it. And we're not going to stop doing it, we're always we, we tend to almost insist on being involved in the later stages if we can, because often these projects are our babies, and we want to see them through. But also we want to soak up that experience of building things.
Ayo Abbas 07:33
Yeah. That's a great USP. It's brilliant. And in terms of, I guess, lockdown, as we're sort of transitioning out of the current one, how has that been for you? And how have you found work? And how how's your business been operating?
James Solly 07:47
We've gone through about three stages of discussion on this, honestly, because we were already set up from the very beginning format, everything was born in 2014. We, I mean, a lot of that technology is now being used, and businesses are panicking and trying to onboard their staff to use these tools, because they need to, we were just using because when we started, they were the best tools for the job. The best way of starting up a business was not to have a server sitting in the corner of the office, but was to have all your documentation already in a cloud server. So Format from the start was made up of well, one, it started at the right time with technology. And also at the very beginning, there were people working everywhere. I think there was only really Steven, one specific office place. So we were like working anyway.
Ayo Abbas 08:35
Yeah.
James Solly 08:37
Even though over the years, we've been ended up more with a team sat in an office together. The minute we all had to go home, it actually wasn't a problem. Everyone just picked their laptops up and left. And then obviously over the next week, we got monitors moved around and things but it really wasn't stress. So from that point of view, we were really lucky. Yeah. And then the first was kind of interesting. It was great. We were thinking, yeah, this kind of works. But I think Steve should probably start doing this. But I think it dawned on us throughout that as much as we were able to do it. And while some people were panicking, we were fine. isn't actually how we like to work.
Stephen Melville 09:12
Yeah, I must confess I wrote an article about this for Building Magazine, no it was the the the RIBA Journal And I wrote the article at the beginning of the pandemic, actually, I was a little bit kind of evangelistic about it is is great remote working is proved to work, etc. But actually, I think the problem is when you're designing things, and you're designing things at quite a pace, you miss that the nuances of working with people and those little kind of side conversations, those little things that you latch on to that spark imagination. You miss all that. If you're remote, as much as I think these tools are brilliant and they prove themselves as James said since we started, I don't think you still can't be face-to-face human interaction in designing things.
Ayo Abbas 10:07
Yeah.
Stephen Melville 10:08
And even yesterday, I was talking to an architect about a potential new job we have. And he was saying, I'm going to come and I'm going to my team is going to sit at your conference table for two days, because frankly, we can't do this without interaction. And I'm fed up with doing things remotely. So I think, as you know, with the tools as James said has completely a mesh of what we do. But I think the big difference is as designers, is you need to have a strong element of face-to-face interaction. Yeah, I think it will continue.
Ayo Abbas 10:41
I guess it's that creativity element, isn't it as well. It's that yeah, it's not the same online. Sadly. You can do a lot though. But it's not the same.
James Solly 10:50
I think the legwork bits you can just go away and do. And I think that's something that's fine. The bit where it's very much hands on creative. And I think another addition, I want to add is that we we have a very nosey and inquisitive team, I think that's the sort of people we are drawn to as well. And it's, it's useful to overhear something going on in the office and be Oh, I've got an input on that. Yeah, you kind of got you. We, you know, like many others, we use chat for the office. But that's still it doesn't work in the same way. Even if you're sort of listening into all of the type of conversations. It still doesn't work the same as sort of overhearing something and your brain starts firing and you shout out, and I think that works better.
Stephen Melville 11:34
But originally original question was, how are you faring in COVID times? So in terms of the way we work? I think we're getting back to more of an equilibrium now. Where more of us are together? Yeah, I think that was interesting. When the pandemic started, I think our workload dropped off, dropped off the cliff. And we thought oh dear, this isn't very good. And then a week later, it climbed back up again. And then two weeks after that, and then it was higher than it was before the pandemic. And then, ever since it hasn't really let up to be honest.
James Solly 12:13
No, we've
James Solly 12:14
had it's still mixed. But no, this it's mostly bounced back. Yeah. And been quite full on it. And very full on at times mid-pandemic
Stephen Melville 12:23
And what was interesting as well, you look at the type of work because, you know, we have gyms that we do, we do lots of contemporary houses, we do lots of works of public works of art, we do things, some of which could be counted as in a way vanity projects, you know, if your your public work of art, is it is strictlyly needed in the time of desperate austerity? And you think well, you know, maybe that's the first thing to go. But actually, no, it's the opposite.
James Solly 12:50
Yeah, it has been, I think there's been a real focus on bringing culture back post pandemic, which we're very happy to be involved in. I think
Ayo Abbas 13:00
That's such a lovely thing to hear. Actually, it's quite positive, isn't it? Because you kind of think open spaces you want all of that come back, don't you and still be vibrant, and, and going? So anything in particular to market yourself I guess, in the past year, or is it mainly been word of mouth? How do you How does your business come to your doors?
James Solly 13:20
I think we have an absolute mix. And I'm glad that we don't just have one recourse, ways we get work. Absolutely. We get local work through word of mouth, I think. We get repeat work, which we're really proud that we we keep working with previous clients a lot. And as they grow, we grow. Which has been which is lovely thing to do with people. We make use of social media, we've had a few projects through that. So not a primary cause of work. I
Stephen Melville 13:53
I think social media is good from a reputational point of view. I'm always quite impressed and quite proud that people in France have heard of us, for example, and there is or there are people I wouldn't have expected to hear of a small practice that only start in 2014 have heard of this?
James Solly 14:12
Yeah, I agree.
Stephen Melville 14:13
And I think so social media is read this fantastic reputational tool.
James Solly 14:17
That's good. I think that's absolutely true. And I think it also reminds people sometimes that we're there, or they see all these guys could help with that. You know, so personally, that's been a big part of our we're very deliberately we're both I think slightly media, social media sceptics, the two of us, but we have to work hard at deliberately putting stuff out there or we tend to forget because we get sucked into doing projects, which is what we enjoy doing much more than we enjoy shouting about projects. I think so we both definitely have to rely on some of the younger members of the team to remind us to actually put stuff out but I think that's something we've worked worked harder on
Stephen Melville 14:59
Yeah. So yeah, it's a bit of social media. It's a little bit it's repeat business and, you know, clients that we've known for many years. And I think this is word has got around. To be honest, it's quite interesting. The word has got around that we're getting recommendations for people we don't know, because they've heard of us. And they've heard we're the people who kind of won't blink, often a tricky challenge we're the people won't blink. So, you know, you you get people come to you out the blues, I want this massive project to be designed in 4 weeks for a festival and it doesn't get donewe're all dead. And we go okay. All right. And we're the only people go, Okay, all right. Yeah.
Stephen Melville 15:35
Yeah. And then you don't sleep for four weeks?
Stephen Melville 15:37
And then we don't sleep for four weeks yeah absolutely.
James Solly 15:39
I think we like to sort of maybe an important thing says we say yes to any early discussion, almost universally, that doesn't necessarily mean that then the project will be something that happens. But I think we, we've always been quite strong and just going, what will help you talk about it, and will offer you some advice. And then a lot of the time we do end up doing those jobs. But we're always open to that first meeting, I think we're always open to that first meeting.
Stephen Melville 16:07
think, also, we've established a niche in the sense of, you know, we don't consider ourselves a normal structural engineers, you know, we've got a huge expertise in digital design. Yeah. Yeah, digital modelling, to a point where, you know, we don't offer as an additional service is a part of what we do, it's everyday what we do. And that is a that is still quite a small world. But we're known well known in that small world. So we tend to get lots of recommendations for projects just as being, you know, famous in that world. Because the hope is that world will expand as digital modelling and computational design becomes more widespread. So I think, I think one of the important things is, in marketing is having an identify having an expertise that you feel passionate about, you haven't just made up because it makes it makes money, and then just going for it and relentlessly going for it and being really good at it. And that pays off.
Ayo Abbas 17:15
Which is what you've been doing, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. And so in terms of your social media, I just got a question. So do you kind of I mean, how often do you post, are there particular things that work particularly well for you on social media? Or you're not? Sure? Well,
James Solly 17:34
OhhI guess we're still finding our feet, we're certainly not good at this. Maybe, hopefully, my image, our project work actually speaks for itself, rather than the way we use the media, which perhaps is something that we're lucky for. I would say, we have found that more, we've actually found who we really like that actually, in the more technical side of our work, tends to get more
Ayo Abbas 18:01
clients and engagement
James Solly 18:03
something like whatever. Than sometimes the things that we think look glossier, so we'll put some images up thinking they look really cool and crisp and clean. And then yeah, they kind of get some reaction. And then we put something up, that's maybe a bit rougher, but shows some technique we're using or some more process on toy that we're fiddling with on part of a project. And actually, that tends to get a much bigger reaction we found. And so that's something we're trying to make sure we do more of is capture the work in progress stuff like how we're using, why we're using tools, and we're, I think that's something we're only just really getting to grips with is making a very conscious effort to put more of that stuff up.
Ayo Abbas 18:45
But you've captured it completely. Because one of the things I'm always saying to clients is actually people are interested in the process, what's it like to work with you, not necessarily the end result, it's much more about this is how we take you through this is how we use digital design and computational design. It'll be all of those types of things and the types of things that you're tinkering with and thinking about. That's the stuff that people will really like, Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Or could you tell me more. And, and that's how you start having conversations, which I think is what you're after on social media, rather than you blasting out. Oh, here's a completed project. It's much more about how do we have two way engagement and conversations with people?
Stephen Melville 19:21
Yeah, it's interesting that we definitely find them? Yeah. I think we can be rail against the idea of the glossy photograph. Guys, it's, it's not fun, as you say, also, you want to be known as the thought leader, that the company out there doing the thinking, and the pushing. If you if you put up your processes and some of the stuff you're thinking about that then by default, you are the person who's out there thinking about it.
James Solly 19:50
The other thing I think has worked well for us is actually acknowledging where we work with others. I think there's far too often that we see people going it's an amazing thing we did and you're with us nonsense, you've definitely didn't do that by yourself. And actually, I do think that there's been we've done a fair few times recently, we've used the methods on our projects that are taken from academia, where we've read a really interesting academic paper and we've gone oh, that's cool. Let's, let's try and deploy that out here in the real world,
Ayo Abbas 20:17
which is brilliant.
James Solly 20:18
Yeah, I'm crediting the different people involved and saying, Oh, we took this amazing work from this person. And I think that's definitely posts where we've managed to do that, and really had a lot of kind of, they've spread really well, because I think those people you mentioned, then, presumably, you know, the people involved, they're kind of excited to see their work being used. And when we credit, credit, other people we work with, we also obviously get seen by the people who follow them. And I think, I think we've definitely found that almost, sometimes the more people involved in a project, you kind of include, when you talk about the work you do, then the greater that is, and I think it feels more real as well, it goes deeper involved in getting this thing built that feels far more sensible than one creative genius.
James Solly 21:05
I think that helps
Ayo Abbas 21:06
completely. And I guess as well, if you're involved in all stages of a project, and this be so many people who are going to be chipping in with different ideas and different inspiration, and, and so yeah, that solution isn't just one person it never is. So nice. That sounds like a great idea. And then that's what social media is about, to be honest. So you're definitely in the right direction. So that's, that's my 10 cents worth. And so in terms of I guess, but any, because at the moment, I guess there's lots of spin off practices and new practices coming to the fore at the moment. So are there any tips to any practices who are starting out at the moment that you give? I think it was 2014. Again, right? Take yourself back,
Stephen Melville 21:47
I think the the biggest thing is, like I mentioned already, which was establish workout, what you are very good at and establish a difference. And then focus on that difference, and invest in research, investing time invest in people who are good at that. And I think, then not to simply promote it, but it's telling the world about it. So, you know, we're brilliant at digital technology. So we don't, we don't necessarily focus on that, and exclusion of everything else. But we are saying that we are the kind of the first generation of engineers who are post digital technology, and we've absorbed this. That's done. Now we're applying it. And that's what we're telling people. That's what I'm about, but identifying it. So I think I do see some small practices start up. And they all say, oh, we're great at doing concept design. And we'd love to work with you soon enough. What do you offer that's different?
Ayo Abbas 22:50
You know,
Stephen Melville 22:50
what, what do you offer this interesting to people and they will learn and clients will get excited about? And I think that's that kind of that kind of bugs me when I do look at some of the young practices, etc. Having glossy photographs of the projects you worked on in your previous life is not enough. What are you about?
James Solly 23:08
That's it? Yeah, I 100% agree. The other thing I wanted to put in is if you're a small practice, I've seen 14, maybe it's old business practice to go there's business and then there's personal, I think, yeah, with a small practice. And I also think that acknowledging that you are certain people, I hate nothing more than a website that doesn't say who you are. That is the worst. But if you have a website where we are young practice doing this and that and it's like, please get in contact info at x y z.com. And there's no Who are we who are you going to be dealing with, I think, as a small practice, accept that people want to work with people, they don't want to work with a machine. Absolutely. This and I do think that like, acknowledging that when someone brings up they're going to work with I mean, in our case, one or other of us is involved in most of our projects, or you know, one of the rest of the team. And I think we acknowledge that straight away and say yes, you'll be working with this person or with James or with Steve or whoever. And going is a truly personal choice. You know, you'll work with an individual lead engineer and others if the project is big enough. But I get really cross when I see it just being a complete black hole, like you shout into the abyss and engineering work comes out. I don't know how that's supposed to work. I would double down on the people involved in the practice it particularly now, when people I think are craving human interaction even more. I think that's something we I mean, we didn't even think twice about putting all of our pictures on the website. When we first started. It was just immediately natural. But I've seen more websites than not that don't have that.
Stephen Melville 24:48
Yeah, I completely agree. I think the other the other thing and this may be a personal way that I operate is I suppose I'm sort of controlled arrogance in you say right We are the best. Yeah, I think to succeed, you've got to think you are the best. And tell people you're the best without actually being in your soul in your face in their faces, they think you're arrogant, you know, this is a fine line between the two. But you've got to have a level of self confidence. Honestly, when you're starting a small practice, you're gonna have a really high dose of self confidence and belief that what you're doing is the best thing. So therefore, that you will do well, and I think you promote that and also people. I think one of the things I learned from my previous employers was, people don't like bad stories people like they like to engage with people who are positive and have positives. And I think keep that mantra up as well.
James Solly 25:48
Yeah, I totally agree with that positive stories.
Ayo Abbas 25:51
How have you fed in previous recessions? Or I guess, are we still in recession? Now? I'm not entirely sure. Are we out of it?
James Solly 25:58
We haven't read the previous recession as Format
Stephen Melville 26:01
We're too young to be in this recession? Yeah. So far, this one this one this? I mean, some people and there are some practices we know who are would you who have suffered who are do have an excellent people,
James Solly 26:13
and people, I think that was my biggest fear, by far was whether or not if it all got bad, we'd have to shrink. And we really didn't want to do that. And I'm only like, well, we worked really hard. But I'm grateful that that was something we didn't have to do. Yeah, we grew we grew we actually grew.
Ayo Abbas 26:32
But it's actually so certain sectors, isn't it? It's like not all of the art sector, but certain pockets of it. Or it's really kind of disjointed as to who's doing who's doing well, and who isn't. And parts of hotels are still going well, others aren't. It's just, it's very up and down in terms of who's who's doing well, and who isn't. It's not just a one blanket thing.
Stephen Melville 26:53
The arts sector appears to be holding up very well, to be honest.
Ayo Abbas 26:58
I guess I'm gonna go to my final question, which is basically, what one tip would you give to a business leader about how to market themselves during this current time?
Stephen Melville 27:10
I think I might just repeat what I said which is, emphasise what you're good at and why it's different. And have a supreme level of confidence that you're better than anyone elses.
Ayo Abbas 27:27
Fantastic. And over to you, James.
James Solly 27:29
I think look at any spare time you get when you do get a, let's say a slight slackening in work, like do invest in that and spend some time researching something doing something fun or saying that's gonna add to what you do and exactly what Steve said specifically, make sure that what what you pick aligns well with what that core direction that you the way you're telling the world about yourself
Ayo Abbas 27:58
Brilliant, thank you so much for coming onto the show and being interviewed by me and putting out internet connections. Thank you so much, James, and Stephen.
Ayo Abbas 28:17
Thanks so much for listening to the latest episode of Marketing In Terms of Recovery, and I'm your host Ayo Abbas If you want to find out more about the bi-weekly show do check out the show notes which will give you more information about who the guests are and all the things we've covered. And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, make sure you hit the subscribe button so you don't miss out on an episode. Until next time, bye.
