Ep 91: Why marketing funnels don't work for B2B and what to do instead
Welcome back to The Built Environment Marketing Show.
Marketing consultant Anna O'Riordan joins me, Ayo Abbas to challenge the B2B marketing funnel. Often heralded as the gospel of all types of marketing, we explore why traditional funnel thinking fails in B2B environments and share practical alternatives that actually work for complex buying journeys.
Resources and links
Alice Widger - Milk It Digital
Antonia Wade - Transforming the B2B Buyer Journey
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is hosted by marketing consultant and content creator Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. It is a show that is unashamedly about marketing for architects and engineers, as well as bringing forward voices that we don't always get to hear.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 0:05
Good morning, and welcome to the latest episode of The Built Environment Marketing Show hosted by me. Ayo Abbas today is a bit of a special kind of episode, because it's one of those which, actually most of my episodes do end up coming out of, like LinkedIn rants or other things that have annoyed me that I read somewhere. So today's one. We are looking at one of my least favorite marketing things, which is marketing funnels. Lots and lots of people say that the best thing since sliced bread, you got to have a funnel. You got to use your funnel, move people down the funnel. And I'm like, Does this really work for business to business marketers? So for me, they don't work that well. So I am like that, and my guest, who I've invited on today, who's also a friend of mine who lives near me called Anna O'Riordan, she also believes the same as me. So we are going to have a discussion all about the marketing funnel and probably why we think they're a bit too simplistic. So yeah, we'll start from that lovely positive angle. Hi, Anna. Can you introduce yourself?
Anna O'Riordan 1:00
Oh yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me in my rants. I'll try not to make it too ranty. I'm Anna. I am a marketing consultant who has been working marketing for far too long, probably 25 years now, I think one more year than me, a long time ago, 99 Yes, started my life in L'Oreal and have spanned a massive range from, say, from FMCG through to luxury, real estate, education, hospitality. It is fair to say I really do not like to be pigeonholed.
Ayo Abbas 1:34
It's so funny. So we're going from someone who is super niche.
Anna O'Riordan 1:38
Yeah, absolutely, I can't commit to a niche. My niche is my thinking and sort of more strategic marketing. So for the last few years, I have been running my own consultancy rather than employed roles, and there I really span all sorts of shapes and sizes and growth stages of companies. But basically, my passion is connecting people with products and places. That's what I do, and I don't use many funnels to do it for my sins. So you can shoot me down now and then. The second hat that I wear is, I'm also co founder of Esteem, a little space where we help marketers, but also businesses, you know, to build the strategic confidence that they need, and capability to make sure that, you know, marketing is actually having an impact in their organizations. So yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
Ayo Abbas 2:29
I have to say that I did do your ROI, which is return on investment one, and it was really good. But I know You sound surprised. I don't pay for many things and do many things, right? And, no, it was really good, as in, like, I think it was giving, like, giving people the language and the tools to have those conversations. Really, really important. And, you know, like, because we often as marketers get pushback on, oh, we just want leads. And it's like, actually, no, this is a good way to push back and show how you can demonstrate a different way and things like that. And I just thought it was so useful and practical in that way. So no, it was good job to you and Laura for that.
Anna O'Riordan 3:04
Thank you very much. Yes, Laura. Shout out to Laura, Professor, Laura Chamberlin, the brains of the outfit.
Ayo Abbas 3:12
Right. Anyway, back to funnels. So first up, what is a marketing funnel?
Anna O'Riordan 3:16
Well, it's basically a way of, kind of visualizing how people move through that buying journey. I think I was when you asked me to come on after my rant, I thought I better actually read up where it came from. And I believe, if it's true, because there's so many different theories around it came from an American kind of advertising sales guru right at the end of the 1800s Wow. And that was where Aida, Aida, pronounce it. People pronounce it differently every time. Awareness, interest, desire, action kind of came from, and it's really, I assume, a structure that people are using, which is a framework, a positive thing to help people understand that, you know, people don't just buy because they've seen an ad. There's a consideration phase that they go through. And I have absolutely no issue with that. I think it's great. You know, you just talked about our ROI course, and how you using language that help people outside of marketing to understand that process. And I think this is one of the early kind of parameters of that. You know, it was about getting people to understand why advertising doesn't lead directly to sales and what you have to do to get there. And of course, as marketers, we love building on that. So over time, what's happened is we put more stages in, because we like to, you know, go a bit further along the line. So you will see slightly different funnel versions around. So some will have an extra stage of consideration in there. Some will have evaluation. They'll call it instead of consideration. Some will have advocacy at the end, which is really, really important. People recommending. Some call it loyalty. So it's about capturing those different phases and recognizing that it's not just we put an ad out and we get a sale. No. Yeah, and that is a really important use of this framework, and it is something when I have a client phone up and go, I just need more ads. We have this conversation, and I do use a funnel framework to help them understand the process and the theory around that journey.
Ayo Abbas 5:15
But I guess it's that journey, isn't it? What is which is what? And I think to non marketers, it's easier to have which, what is a it's basically a simple structure, isn't it? It is, and that's it. And I know, like when I did my post on LinkedIn, I know some of the comments were actually, I use it to explain to my my leaders, yes, about awareness, consideration, blah, blah, blah, because then I can see it. Oh, so we need lots of people at start so we can get to that two sales, or whatever,
Anna O'Riordan 5:43
Absolutely, and I think it has a role. I'm not saying funnels. I mean, I hate all the click baited headlines. Funnels are dead, and this is, that's not me. But for me, I don't think, and it was interesting to just go back and try and understand the history of how it's kind of evolved. I don't think it was ever meant to be a gospel. This is what we are. And I think the funnel has sort of become a bit of a Bible in marketing. It's like, you know, this is how you will do it, and this is how you will think about marketing, and this is how it works. And really it's not. It's a guide, it's a visual framework, so you don't lose key stages, you don't lose sight of things that are happening with the consumer. But it's not, in my view, something that helps you move drastically forward. And there are a few reasons for that, you know, the first one, and this is a big one, most buying journeys are not linear. They do not follow a neat pattern. Think of your own buying journey. It just doesn't happen. You know, people will jump around. They will pause because something's changed in their needs. They might look back a stage because, you know, something else has come, or they might just skip stages altogether. So, you know, visual representations can be dangerous. They can be really helpful for conveying something, but when someone takes it as verbatim and gospel, and we must follow through these phases, you start to get into sticky territory.
Ayo Abbas 7:07
I guess it's that thing, isn't it? It's like, How often do humans actually follow the rules completely? We don't.
Anna O'Riordan 7:11
What are the rules? What is normal? What is normal behavior? You know? So this is, this is the problem. Secondly, for me, this funnel is not, it's not a diagnostic, right? It's not, what does it tell you? It doesn't tell you where things are stalling or dropping off or something. Now you can start to try and measure, but measuring accurately, we know it's a big thing. ROI, course, talked a lot around that it's really difficult, and so if all your measurement is geared to a funnel, I think you're missing really important things, and I just don't think it's going to go any deeper. So actually, you know, to do a funnel really well. For me, you start from audience insight, right? You start from what, what are the pain points, what are the problems and what's going on? Just looking at, oh, it's, let's say it's an email funnel, because a lot of them are these days. You know, God help us. My inbox is drowning. It's my own fault, but we need more special AI written. But anyway, let's say we're looking at, you know, oh, well, this number of people opened, but this number of people didn't, you know, What's that telling you? It's not telling you. Huge amount doesn't, and this is the third bit. It doesn't tell you. It's not predictive. It doesn't tell you because someone opened that wretched email that they're going to go and buy tomorrow or or next year. You know, I download a white paper. It doesn't mean I'm about to buy. It doesn't tell you when they're going to buy. It doesn't tell you why they'll buy. And I think the really, really important point, I know today, we're focused on B2B, so keep me on track. But the key point is, in reality, people buy when they're ready to buy, not because your wonderful email, however beautiful and well written it was, has a call to action that says, This is your next step.
Ayo Abbas 8:58
And what I also find interesting about email now is that some email clients, they actually automatically open, click every link to check it, don't they for security. So like, when you suddenly go, has that really, that person really gone through every single link on my email? It's like, no, automatically. That's what the email security provider Exactly. It kind of makes it redundant. And also, with the Apple hiding, like, where people are clicking. You don't really know
Anna O'Riordan 9:22
Who has a picture these day of what's going on. So I think if you, if you kind of pull back from the funnel and from the tactics, because funnel is really, yeah, it's, it's, well, how can I put it? It is, I think, pushing people more to tactics than the thinking, right? That's my problem. So especially true in B2B. And this gets banded around all the time, but it's it's there only around 5%, maybe 8%, depending on what set you in of potential buyers are actually market at any given time. So if you're pushing out all this content in the hope that somebody is going to. Follow neatly through that funnel and say, Oh, be my consideration phase. Oh, I've made decision. I'm going to now buy you you've got a problem. Because that's not happening the 95-92% of other people, they're busy going on with their lives. You know, they aren't interested. That is not to say they don't need to hear about you. That is not to say that they don't need to hear a message that kind of sticks in their head for when they might need you or do come to need you. But can we stop this kind of belief that they're suddenly going to jump through all the hoops and the different stages of your lovely funnel because you piqued their interest with a little download, you know, last Monday, it's just not what's going to happen. And, by the way, sorry, because I, I am a hunter,
Ayo Abbas 10:48
by the way,
Anna O'Riordan 10:51
on that download, you know, if it's gated and they're not in market, there isn't a chance in hell they're going to trade valuable data with you they might use, as I do, I'm sorry, a junk email and get it, but they're not going to give that to you. So, you know, this is where, if your entire strategy is based around nudging people through this fictional funnel, because it is fictional, you are going to be missing, I think, a big part of the bigger picture. You're going to be wasting a lot of energy trying to kind of force decisions that aren't going to happen to happen, instead of actually building trust, staying memorable those things that we know are really important.
Ayo Abbas 11:28
And the whole thing is, you have that trust and that memorability, then actually, when they are in that 5% or 7% or whatever, that time when they're ready to buy, they'll be like, ah, who could I just see who was saying separate.
Anna O'Riordan 11:39
Well, I can give you a perfect example from my own experience in the last couple of weeks, right? So I think we both know an amazing SEO Alice from Milk It Digital over there. So I have known Alice for a few years. I've brought her on board to help with clients. Because I am not an SEO and I'm really, she's amazing, and I really would rather outsource that. And so I know and trust Alice. I know she's done a good job from experience. Now I think, forgive me, Alice, I think it was a year, maybe two years ago she she kind of launched a DIY platform where you can sign up, subscribe. It's all in there tells you what to do, blah, blah, and she's on the back end to help. Now, I've known about this. She hasn't emailed me to tell me I knew because I follow her on LinkedIn. She put a little post out on LinkedIn couple years ago. Every now and again, she drops a bit about it interesting, not interesting to me at the moment. Don't have a client that would want that. I don't need it. Go back a couple of weeks, so probably a year, even two years later, and I'm sitting there trying to do something for a very, you know, cost conscious client, and thinking, Well, I can't engage Alice on this one, because it's not that she's expensive, yeah, so I know what if they sign up to her great platform and do it myself and just have a little look, because I was doing an audit, I didn't need to do a huge amount, and actually it might be something that works for them as a solution. So what did I do? I didn't contact Alice. I didn't I'm not in her newsletter. Sorry, Alice. I'm not getting any of that stuff. I went onto her website. I bought I signed up for a month, I got into it, and it's been great. But that's my point. This was skipping a million steps of that funnel because the awareness was there, the trust was there. She's regularly in my LinkedIn, so I don't forget about her. You know, we don't work together all the time. It's probably three or four times a year that I have a need for a client, but I jumped, I jumped a million hoops. So if you're just doing the funnel, what happens to that person? The moral of that story is that visibility and the right type of visibility is what's really, really important, so that when you shift into the 5% that's ready, you're there, you're in the consideration set.
Ayo Abbas 13:56
There is one part where I think the funnel is useful, and that is that, you know, like the different stages, which I always get confused by, like the different tactical options that go through each stage. I mean, I don't always know what goes where, but actually having that range of content types and approaches, I think is useful, absolutely, because that's that thing of actually, you've got to say that message and target that audience in different ways. Yeah, yeah. I do think that's that part's useful.
Anna O'Riordan 14:23
I think, I think as a framework. So then it becomes like a checklist for thinking, right? It becomes, am I covering off these phases, recognizing people will come in to the that journey at different points, right and at different times? So, yes, absolutely, as a checklist for, you know, where do I need to be? And also, for thinking, What does my content need to say? Because this person might be already in consideration, you know, they might have a short list. Do I need, if I'm B2B, software? Do I need that dreaded page on the website that, you know, talks about my features and benefits versus, you know, all that stuff? Yeah. Gosh, absolutely. And I'm not locking it. My point is, if you just start from I've got a funnel, and then you're not getting results, but you don't even know really how to measure that. I think you're missing a bit of a trick. That's my problem. And we know in B 2 B, you know, it might look really tidy on your slide deck, but buying journeys in B2B are anything but
Ayo Abbas 15:26
Are you a practice leader who isn't getting the industry profile that you deserve? I often hear from practices who do brilliant work but aren't actually getting the visibility they need to get business through the door. Practices that influence the sector aren't necessarily the best at design. They're often better at positioning their expertise and getting it seen and valued by those with budgets. I'm Ayo Abbas, and for 24 years, I've helped leading built environment firms build the recognition and authority that their expertise deserves. Drop me a line at Ayo@Abbasmarketing.com which is Ayo@Abbasmarketing.com to set up a call where we can talk about how I can help you get a strategy and plan in place to get you to where you deserve to be.
Ayo Abbas 16:09
So what's your kind of experience on the kind of B2B front and the funnel, and how that works? Because I know when I've done stuff, I mean, I have projects where I think we were talking of a five year lead time, yeah, for a massive projects, you know, and then you're just there going that. It's more a case of me knowing that this is what we're going for, and then what we need to do as a campaign over a long period of time to reach those people rather than it's a strict funnel, because it just doesn't work well, I
Anna O'Riordan 16:44
think the reality is, and you've said it, you know, these are long term often. They're not impulse buys, right? So you're not, it's not low ticket value. It's often either critical infrastructure, new software. It's something that requires a lot more around it. It's not like I'm just going to go and buy a new notepad, right? So it's very complex, and it's partly complex because it's not one person. So my problem with the funnel, when it comes to B2B, and more complex, not just B2B, but high ticket value and B2C as well, is there's a whole wave of stakeholders. As a committee, whatever you want to call them.
Ayo Abbas 17:23
buy in groups is the one that's been used. Yeah, it's that thing of it's not one person,
Anna O'Riordan 17:28
It's not one person. And because it's not one person, your funnel can't speak to one person you know. And you have to recognize that the different stakeholders that are coming through have different lenses through which they're evaluating, is this a good thing or not? You know, do we go ahead? Do we work with these people? Do we buy this? I don't know what Foundation, cement, support, do we, whatever it is. Do we, do we sign up on a retainer for this facilities management firm? You know, there are so many different things, and so the job isn't really to convert in that way. It's about actually recognizing the different pain points and the different needs and different perspectives. But you as a marketer may not be able to get into all those people. So I think, from my experience, what's really valuable is setting up kind of feedback loops. So working really close with I know whether it's your sales or your business development person or your even customer service, if it's an existing thing, to get under the skin. What are the objections? What are the pain points? What are the problems and complaints we're hearing and actually tailoring your marketing to who you're trying to get to. You know, you can wrap it up as ABM, you can wrap it up as whatever, you know, account based management, but it is a more personalized approach, and it's about really that human insight. That's what creates the value. That's what helps people remember you, because they suddenly feel, Oh, these guys get it right, and
Ayo Abbas 19:02
They're helping me, and they're helping me. They know me and speak my language, yeah? I think that that, that speaking your language is is quite amazing. Someone goes, Oh, I read your website, and it just feels like you're talking to me.
Anna O'Riordan 19:12
yeah. And the more you can get that feedback loop, and almost, you know, use their words, yeah, use their words because actually, then, okay, yeah, I get it when the time is right, or, you know, or even in some experiences, we had someone who's desperate to bring in one of my clients softwares, but it was blocked by the CFO for obvious reasons. Often does, often the case,
Anna O'Riordan 19:39
and he knows that that's my specialty. And so, you know, we went the extra mile to understand, well, what, internally, what does that kind of political map look like? How can we help you to look good and to explain and to overcome those things, and if it means sitting in two extra meetings to have. Those open conversations and be transparent. You know, that's what we will do, because, actually, we don't want you to sign up to our software if not everyone's on board. Because what happens then is, it doesn't get embedded, it doesn't get adopted properly, and then you turn around, say it's rubbish, and you leave a bad review. So, you know, I can't stress enough, I am people first, right? And that's not just in terms of my marketing. That's also the people I'm working with or the people I'm working for. I want to get under the skin, under the skin of that. And I think, I think a funnel gives the false illusion of control from a marketer side. And the reality is we can't control this process. We need to work with the other stakeholders. We need to help and support them, but also shape what they're saying. You know, I've had the situation in a past life where I had the most beautiful brand. It was fantastic. All the messaging was so good, and the sales people were not using it,
Ayo Abbas 21:02
oh God, so you were just there going, Oh my gosh.
Anna O'Riordan 21:04
In their infinite wisdom of knocking on the door, and they probably was some truth in it, they were hearing other things, so they were focusing on those other things. But what they weren't doing was telling me so that I could understand that and evolve our messaging. They were just going, this is like the marketing brands stuff, but we're not gonna talk about that today. We're gonna talk about this.
Ayo Abbas 21:26
I guess that's an important point, though, isn't it? Quite often, some, actually, many people, depending on your level in market, in marketing, you might not have access to customers. No, absolutely. So it might be a case of but you need to ask the questions of the people that do, and the right questions. And it is always quite illuminating. Actually, if you sit people in the room and you suddenly go, how do you introduce the firm? How do you introduce the firm? It sounds like 10 different firms in a room, right? Oh,
Anna O'Riordan 21:52
and it is, it is a concern. And, you know, and this is where, you know, I think one of the things when you reached out to me on my post and you're like, Oh, you're ranting again, because I talked about the gurus and the AI prompt jockeys that are out there, you know, selling their formula. Oh, I've got this magic lead gen kind of approach. Here's my framework. Steal my Ideas. I can't cope with that. And, you know, I wrote that post, as I often do, out of frustration. I'm very sorry. I shouldn't be allowed near LinkedIn when I'm frustrated, possibly,
Ayo Abbas 22:33
but content, man,
Anna O'Riordan 22:35
but it's real, right? Yeah, and it's because there's two things. The first is, I've been around long enough and broad enough that there is no universal funnel. I'm sorry there isn't right. Companies, not only are in different sectors, they're in different growth stages. They have different problems. They have, you know, different levels of complexity of that, buying, purchase, all sorts of things that are happening, the macros around them have different impacts. So usually, and I don't, I'm not trying to criticize my fellow marketers, but usually what I find with these, oh, my framework works. When I look at their framework, Yeah, I bet it was really successful for the one sector that they used it in and got success from and that's amazing, and I'm not knocking it, but don't automatically assume that the next person who comes along, who's in a completely different situation is going to get results from it. This one size fits all. I've got the answers. I'm a guru. It gets my goat, and it worries me, because I think people are spending money on things, and they're not seeing the results, and then the net effect that not only that they've lost money, is that they think marketing doesn't work. Yeah, but I think drives me mad,
Ayo Abbas 23:49
but I think that people are looking for an a quick fix, easy solution, silver bullet. Because I know sometimes I frustrated, frustrate people in, like, some of my marketing calls, because I'm like, to be honest, you can get most things to work in marketing if you do them well enough for the right audience. And it's true in some ways. It's just like, What would you like to pick from the menu? If you want to spend 100k we'll just get you everywhere. You just pay for it. If you want to, you don't.
Anna O'Riordan 24:18
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's the problem. And, you know, I'm a nightmare, probably, in some ways, for certain types of clients, because the type of client that comes and says to me, I just want this. And let's give the case of ads, I just need ads. Okay, why do you need ads? Well, we need more people, okay? And in that, in that in one particular case, it always sticks in my head, I need Google ads. Okay, you need Google ads. So, of course, I don't offer Google ads. I know plenty of people that do, but I have a little look around, and I, before I go on a call, I, you know, do a bit of research on the customer. The first thing I see is they have a 2.2 star rating on Google. So when I goon the call. I'm sorry you don't need Google ads right now, because you're gonna spend all this money, and what they're gonna see is, the first thing they'll see is bad ratings, and, oh yeah, but that's just people in the next . I said, well, even if that were the case, it doesn't stop that's what they see. So you're wasting your money first impression, right, right? And so it's the same with a funnel. If we just need a funnel, we just need an email funnel, okay, but who's your email going to how do you know? What do you know about that base? How ready are they? Are they people like me? I am so sorry to every research company and things that I have signed up downloaded a white paper. I have no intention of spending money with you. I have never got any intention of spending money because I'm a one man band with a network of lovely people I typically these days aren't working for the big FTSE100 that I used to be employed by. I'm working for small to medium sized businesses who every single pound and penny spent counts and It really has to be accounted for, yeah, and it's not about direct return, but it's about I will not put things forward however. I will inform myself. So if you want to put stuff out for free, I will download it 9 times out of 10. I'll download it and go, Yeah, whatever. But you know, every now and again, there'll be something great. It will stick in my mind, and when the opportunity comes up, I'll get in touch with those people on behalf of a client, or for myself, but you know, it's just, it's an organising structure that is helpful to get non marketers to understand the complexity of a buying journey. It's helpful for marketers to sort of sense check, are we covering off these our consumer, our customer, but it cannot be the one size fits all, that helps you convert.
Ayo Abbas 24:18
It doesn't. So what can we do instead? Well,
Anna O'Riordan 24:18
I think I started to touch on it. You know, for me, it's about influence, and it's about understanding, where does that influence need to happen? Mapping. So spend a lot of time understand that customer. If you can't speak to the customer directly, speak to the people that are speaking to the customer, whether it's, you know, in a small organisation, it might just be the MD, you know, in a bigger one, it might be a sales team, might be customer support team. Start to build out an influence map. Start to really think about, okay, how, particularly in B2B, who's involved? Who can we get to directly? Who do we have to get through, through a chain of influence, you know, and and build your program accordingly, and understand that, yes, of course, awareness is, is, has, is critical, right? So all the different things that build to that, there's lots of tools in your arsenal. You might want to do the dreaded webinar, you might want to do a breakfast event. You might want to do those things for get the right people in the room Exactly.
Ayo Abbas 24:18
Highly targeted. 25 of those you target right in the room. It's valuable,
Anna O'Riordan 24:18
Amazing, amazing, and so much more valuable than then having 15 emails firing off for the next two months in this hope that so, I think, get in the room, and when you get them in the room and you're hearing them, don't just think about what you're telling them, listen to the conversation, because then I think that informs your content strategy. So that starts you thinking non sales, what is it that if these people start following our page, or our key stakeholders more likely within the business, what is it they want to hear us talking about that's going to get them to build that trust in us.
Ayo Abbas 24:37
and continue that conversation, the relationship, and meet you on that one to one stage? So in a way, the funnel is a better way of going. Actually, this is our person. We'll start off with them in more of a bigger setting, and then how do we connect with them more on the one to one? That's kind of what you want,
Anna O'Riordan 24:37
Absolutely that. And you know, as a framework, as a checkpoint, it's great, but just don't think that because you've set up 15 emails at a certain cadence, you're going to get XYZ sales. It's just not going to happen. So I think influence mapping is a really, really big part of it. I then also think building a tailored plan, it sounds like a lot of work, but in reality, particularly B2B, you know, these are high value contracts. You don't need 1000s of them. Typically
Ayo Abbas 29:17
You need to go into them in depth.
Anna O'Riordan 29:20
And I've had founders, you know, in smaller B to B businesses come and go, Oh, I've got this target I've got to meet. You know, I've taken some investment I've got, and actually, when you sit down and go, well, that's like 15 people that you need to get this year, that's not and therefore, we don't need some sort of generic funnel.
Ayo Abbas 29:39
But that could be literally raising your profile on the topics they care about.
Anna O'Riordan 29:42
Then raise your price. Having lunch with them alone, dropping them a LinkedIn message because you've seen something that a competitor did not to sell. Just say, hey, think this might be interesting. It's all those things. And then, when can we come in? When can we come in and meet that? CFO. That doesn't really want us. You know, when can we have those conversations? What can we do? And it it feels like it's more time and it's less neat when you're selling your marketing plan in but that's how life works. Yeah, yeah. And actually, I don't know if you read April Dunford at all.
Ayo Abbas 30:16
I do. I adore her.
Anna O'Riordan 30:19
She's awesome. So, you know, obviously she comes at it more from a sales positioning point of view. But one of the things that really struck me that she talks about is, you know, 40 to 60% of B 2 B purchase processes end in no decision. And they end in no decision because the buyers are completely overwhelmed, and so they just do nothing because it's easier to do nothing, right? It's less risky. No one got fired for sticking with the same provider.
Ayo Abbas 30:48
get fired. That is it. That's what they want.
Anna O'Riordan 30:50
And in some of those, yeah? Well, in your bang committee, you've got like, a person who actually wants to change, who's initiated it. You've got someone who's probably terrified of it, because, like, oh God, you know this new CRM is going to expose that I'm not actually following up on call. I don't know what it might Yeah, you've probably got one who's just trying to avoid the blame. You've got one who's too damn busy and can't be bothered. One doesn't want to spend the money. So, you know, once, it's a bit, I always think of it, you know, the three monkeys, you know, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. It's a little bit like when I talk about influence, that's what I'm thinking about. It's like, how can you might not meet all those people, but your key contact gives a lot of information away, and you start to understand, okay, this.
Ayo Abbas 31:34
Sometimes it can be as simple as, like, you can help them write their business case or whatever they need to present, absolutely like that. And it's like, what do you need? I can do that for you. And it is taking the pain that they can go and present, what do you need to show to your boss, what
Anna O'Riordan 31:49
Let me help you. Let me help you. And I think the other thing is, you know, 40 to 60% of B2B is not resulting in a sale when you think that way. For me, the point of a funnel, therefore, is not actually about making a decision. You almost need to stop assuming that they're going to make a decision, because more than half don't do anything. And so I think April dunford's point is, unless you can make the status quo so staying with what you've got look really uncomfortable, look like a bad option. People aren't going to move. So the job of marketing for me in B2B and on these long so buying cycles isn't just like a funnel. A funnel for me, layers the hype of what you think is great about your offer at four or five points along and long, long through these stages until finally, they're going to buy No, it's not because we know 60% of them go I'm overwhelmed. I can't I don't take the risk. I don't be blamed. So if you can build that influence, you build that trust. And how do you do that? It's through all the things we've been talking about today. It's about helping them feel you really understand their needs, what they've got, perhaps sometimes better than they know themselves. They haven't really stopped and thought about it as they read a LinkedIn post. They go, shit. I was trying so hard not to be swearing. But you know, they they, they go, Oh, God, yeah, you know, I never thought about that, but that is so absolutely what we're seeing, what we feel it's about being there. It's about keeping in touch, but not in that salesy way. You know, some people don't like it. I ping them off random stuff on LinkedIn. I'm not trying to sell them things, just actually, I've seen something that's really useful for that person. They may never work with me. They may never recommend me. I don't really care. It's just actually, genuinely, I like connecting things together. And if I've seen something that's valuable, I'm gonna do it. If you adopt that sort of mindset, I think it accelerates the process. And if you can do it in a way that ticks boxes for those that buying group committee, whatever you want to call it. My god, you're so valuable, right? You're winning.
Ayo Abbas 34:06
So finally, to close out, so any resources that marketers who want to kind of go, not anti funnel, but do an alternative to the funnel,
Anna O'Riordan 34:15
well, I suppose Mine aren't. They're reading, they're thinking, they're following the people that break the rules. So, April Dunford, I've mentioned, you know, reading around as well. I think there's a lot there. I think there are people like Caitlin Burgoyne, who has Customer Cam, you know. So her thing is about why people buy. So it's not obsessing about this funnel or model. It doesn't really matter, because she understands what is it that makes them tick? And there's a lot of psychology in that. So I think that's quite important. Anyone that I think there's a guy now I'm just trying to remember his name. Chris Walker. Oh, Demand. Gen, yeah, yeah. He. He is. He's no but he was the funnel abolitionist, you know, in its pure sense, but he's the one that really popularised this whole idea of dark social, yeah, and the fact that actually, you know, we didn't touch on that, but the conversations that happen with your peers and the things that are shared, you know, you ping in private something, and we can't measure those things necessarily, but they lead often to those buying conversations.
Ayo Abbas 35:28
I've got a podcast interview I'm doing end of August with she's a B2B person, but she does all that she's she's transformed a research Intelligence Group. Completely transformed and turned it into Demand Gen, amazing, that kind of stuff. So that's gonna be really, really interesting
Anna O'Riordan 35:46
Community, you know, that's that's better than a funnel, if you've got people really engaged now, community is a whole other topic, Ayo, and I won't rant on that today. You know, for me, there isn't a funnel. A funnel is a concept. It's a visual framework. What is really important is context and content and how those match. And that's how you build trust and move through.
Ayo Abbas 36:07
So I've got one more resource to add, which then turn you away from PwC, yes. And she's got a book called Transform, transforming the buyer, the B2B buyer journey, which is actually really good. And it's a different way of looking at how we actually, how we actually target people. And you look at it and go, this makes a lot more sense for how people buy, and it's that long term thing. And, you know, different types of people in an organisation, I think she's got like, five buyer groups, okay, which I think it just makes a lot more sense. And you're like, actually, this is practical. This is how it works.
Anna O'Riordan 36:38
I think so. And don't underestimate, you know, the CEO's niece and the neighbors, you know, dog and all the other people, because that's what triggers it.
Ayo Abbas 36:49
Yeah, yeah. How can we change that? And really just drives bonkers. But anyway, on that happy note, thank you so much for coming on to the show.
Ayo Abbas 36:54
Very welcome. Thank you for having me
Ayo Abbas 36:56
I will put links to you and all your amazing stuff in the show notes, thank you.
Anna O'Riordan 37:02
Thank you so much. Lovely to chat.
Ayo Abbas 37:08
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes, which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abbasmarketing.com and of course, if you like the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us see you soon you.
