Ep 64: Finding your voice to spark change with Professor Sadie Morgan OBE
Welcome to the new season of The Built Environment Marketing Show.
My guest today is Professor Sadie Morgan OBE, co-founder from dRMM among many other things. March is shaping up as a month that shines a spotlight on women so it seems apt that the theme for this interview is finding your voice.
Resources and links
Music in Offices - City of Women
National Infrastructure Commission
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is hosted by marketing consultant and content creator Ayo Abbas. It is unashamedly about marketing for architects and engineers as well as bringing forward voices that we don't ordinarily get to hear. This show is independent and if you're a regular listener you can show your support by:
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas
Hello, and welcome to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Hosted by me Ayo Abbas. I'm a marketing consultant, speaker, trainer and content creator, of course. And I work with a variety of engineering and architecture firms. Today is a very special episode. It's March and it's shaping up to be a bit of a month where we're celebrating women. We've had International Women's Day, we've had Women in Construction Week, we've had Mother's Day. And I even got to take part in a women's march, which was dedicated to celebrating the voices of women from the city past and present. My voice was actually broadcast into Paternoster Square. And I got interviewed on the local news as well. My guest today, Sadie Morgan also took part in this event, and I'll put a link into the show notes so you can hear all about it and watch what happened. I met Sadie last year for the first time when I was sat on a bench and a main thoroughfare of UKREiiF and in terms of a networking tip, it's probably one of the best places I've ever sat. To be honest, so many people stopped to say hello. Anyway, back to the interview with Sadie. Last week, I travelled to her offices in London Bridge. And it was lovely, lovely conversation to have because we're both really passionate about women finding their voices in society. So, it seemed a really, really good theme for the chat and for the interview, which I hope you enjoy. Happy listening. Hello, and welcome to the show, Sadie. And thanks so much for inviting me to your offices, which are lovely. So, can you introduce yourself Sadie and who you are what you do, or what you do? Because you do quite a lot.
Sadie Morgan
I do, I'm Sadie Morgan, I'm Founding Director of dRMM Architects, which is where you are. And it's very lovely to have you here. I have so many different roles and responsibilities, I'll try and knock a few off for you. So, I am a commissioner on the National Infrastructure Commission, I sit on the board of Homes England. I founded and helped set up the Quality of Life Foundation. I sit on the board of the major Projects Association, I chair, the New London Architecture sounding board, i'm a Professor at Westminster and Cambridge. And I think that'll do for now.
Ayo Abbas
I think that's quite a lot. I knew I was coming in this week. And like I said, I thought of this theme on the school run yesterday. And that's often where I get my ideas. But it's so interesting, because I suddenly thought actually, what's really interesting is that it's International Women's Day on Friday, there's loads of events happening and all this stuff. And I’m like, how do people find their voice. And I think you've done really well in finding your voice or as we said, and when I was amazed, we talk about your realm of authority, and having that message that you bring to the world and all that you do. So that’s what I wanted to talk about with you.
Sadie Morgan
So sure, no, I think I think that it's interesting when you reflect on, at what point in your career, you actually, as you say, found your voice, and it was probably quite late in my career for me. And there's lots of different reasons for that. But I think once you've discovered and what you're good at, yeah, and then and then coupled with a confidence that comes with experience and or having some success at the moments or times when you've used that voice. I think that that's a good combination of things that help you think well actually is, , I have something worth saying and, and it's important that you say it, if you believe passionately in it, so I believe passionately, in good design, I believe passionately, in the ability of good design and thought and thinking to transform people's quality of life. And I believe passionately in the environment and people and plays and drawing on all of those things and then combining that with my experience. I think that actually I have something to say yeah about those topics.
Ayo Abbas
So how did you start to find your voice? Was there any particular things to do? Were particular things that you did? Or was it a confidence builder or something like that?
Sadie Morgan
I think it's a confidence builder, actually. And I've always, I set the this practice up with Alex, director and Philip Marsh. We now have three new amazing directors, but at the time, it was just the three of us and we all sort of took on different roles. Alex would be the spokesperson, I would be the person who looked after the hearts and minds of that team and built helped build the team and Phillip would do the work?
Ayo Abbas
Everyone has different roles, though, isn't it? Yeah, your strengths, right? Yeah,
Sadie Morgan
Exactly. But I think what that meant was that when people asked me to give a talk or speak at something do lecture, I would always say, oh, no, no, no, that's Alex's job, he's much better at it. And, and I think that there came a time, in combination with the fact that I've, so if you park that idea, and then say, Okay, what else was I doing at the time I set my business, I set this business up with Alex and Philip, when I was 24 years old. So, I've never, I've never worked for anybody else. But what I have always done is to do various things outside of my place of work, because I believe in having bringing different perspectives, and making sure that you're not just some navel gaze, or who doesn't really have any, , who's in an echo chamber if they're, themselves and they're in business. So, I've always done other things. And at the time, I was on the Council of the Architectural Association and gave an impassioned speech, I can't remember what about, and then somebody came up to me and said, You, you, you've got to be the next president. And anywhere, this sort of extraordinary situation where I was made the president of the Architectural Association, and at that time, I was the youngest and second only woman in 103 or something years history, gosh, 150 years history. And I think that, I suddenly thought, actually, I have a responsibility. I can't keep saying, oh this is too difficult. I don't really like public speaking. I'm not good at it. Let Alex do its job. It's not. And also there weren't at that time, luckily, we're getting better at it. I mean, we're still nowhere near where we need to be. But at the time, there are very few female, , directors of practices, very few female, , speakers. We don't have that at that time. nowadays, I think lots of people understand that they cannot put a panel on, unless it's diverse. But that wasn't the case, then. So I suddenly thought what, I've just got to put myself out there, and I had some excruciating, I mean, absolutely excruciating times, I'd stand up and have stage fright and not say anything for what felt like 10 minutes or, and so it wasn't, it wasn't a perfect,
Ayo Abbas
but then isn't like a muscle that you need to exercise. What I mean? Absolutely,
Sadie Morgan
no, absolutely. And I think you, you have to just get over yourself. Yeah. And interestingly, at first I was, I think the reason why I struggled at first was because I was trying so hard to be intellectual and clever, and, , be able to answer all the questions about , ask me about the economy or something about this, , did I'd be listening to the Today programme before I do, just so I was up on the current , and then and and then suddenly, it just No, actually be genuine. Be honest about what your, what your strengths are, what you're interested in what you can speak with some credibility. And then suddenly the world is the opens up to you and people want to ask your opinion, because you're speaking truth, truth to power, or you're speaking about something that you have, as I said before, you have some knowledge.
Ayo Abbas
Yeah. But also, I also don't I also think it's also a thing of not being afraid to say I don't know the answer to Oh, yeah. Which a lot of people you just see them and you're like, they just talking rubbish.
Sadie Morgan
Yeah, no, I yeah, I'm totally. I remember when I first when I first arrived on the National Infrastructure Commission, it was the most intimidating thing honestly, I'd ever done. My Lord Heseltine, Lord Adonis.
Ayo Abbas
Gosh, seriously into infrastructure, in a way, that is.
Sadie Morgan
George Osborne, the chancellor at the time, as , sitting around the table sitting next to Demis Hassabis, who's the guy who started DeepMind probably as nine people in the world that can do AI like him, , the opposite the Chief Economist to the World Bank and I just sat there with my eyes wide open thinking don't ask me anything. And after a while, I learned that actually it was okay to say I don't know what this means and everyone talks in acronyms and so forth
Ayo Abbas
oh, transport is ridiculous.
Sadie Morgan
And so, I remember asking some really I did become the person to ask the exam questions. And actually it does, it does uncover I might say, what does that mean? And everyone's? What does that mean?
Ayo Abbas
They don't always know.
Sadie Morgan
And then there were times when I could see the few people rolling their eyes in a nice way, like, Oh, come on, say, do you really don't know what that is. But I'm, I got fine about that. And, and learned that it's better to say I don't understand. Because otherwise you'll never learn. And also, you can't contribute to a conversation where you're half in half out. And people are very generous about taking the time to explain something to you. However how empowered they may be, and how and high profile? I think if there's anything I've learned, they are incredibly respectful of you asking a question, and very rarely will put you down because of it.
Ayo Abbas
I think as well, it's interesting. So, I've just done a series on transport, integrated transport, how you can get that delivered. And what was really interesting was that when you speak to people, it's a lot of it is down to communication. Yeah. And somewhat, the language we use, engineers and designers being more focused on their spreadsheet or their outcome or what they, that thing that they're trying to design rather than, actually, does it work for that family? Yeah. Can they use it? Have you ever gone back and looked at it? Yeah, I think that, that would, that's the missing part and a lot of what we're doing, and it's like, if people don't understand what the value that HS2 will bring to me as an individual, then I will sit there and go don't spend my money.
Sadie Morgan
Yeah, I think that we need to learn how to articulate the value of things. And, and how, actually we are able to have proper, open and honest discussions about the tradeoffs, which there inevitably are and will always be, but yeah, I think I think language is something that I have always struggled with, mainly because I, I'm, , I'm, I'm an intelligent person, but my vocabulary, I get my, I have a history, a backstory about my education and various other things, which means that I don't have, I don't always find the vocabulary or have the words or yeah, you can string the sentences together in ways others can. And I've always struggled and found that a bit embarrassing at first, and now I'm just like, well, actually, sometimes it's, that's good. Yeah. Because that's, that puts me in a bigger group. Oh, she doesn't know. She doesn't know that word, either. Tell me what that word is.
Ayo Abbas
Also, I just think we just start talking in acronyms or whatever, or technical jargon. And then it's just like, we lose people. Of course, we can't communicate what we do as an industry. And that's a massive fail for us.
Sadie Morgan
Yeah. And we just looked like we're trying to hard
Ayo Abbas
So, in terms of finding your voice, did you do any courses? What did you do? Or did you have what was your way? Or did you literally just throw yourself into it?
Sadie Morgan
That's really interesting. I did actually through just throwing myself into it. And but I think one of the, I'll tell you a story. So when I first I went through a big job, very high profile job and ended up when they'd sent me the I made a big fuss about why I haven't been invited. , I was completely naive. Like, they're like, oh, have you spoken to the headhunters? And I'm like, so head on. And then anyway, I spoke to this awful awful man who was just like you do realise this is really high profile, you do realise that you have yeah, and I was I was like, Yeah, and I was so cross about it, that I having not even remotely thinking I would necessarily want a job I'm like, I'm gonna get this job. And then they sent the they deigned to send me the job description and I'm like, oh god, I can't possibly do any of this. How embarrassing how humiliating. I made this big thing. And now obviously, I can't do it. And my, the, the office manager at the time, who we took from a very young girl who had stayed with us, and I've mentored and looked after her and she's lovely, lovely to cold. And she's like, Sadie, you can do this standing on your head. And I'm like, Really, and she's like, we are going to rewrite your CV. And we, I mean, literally,
Ayo Abbas
you just needed someone to right?
Sadie Morgan
And she sat there, , young, this young woman who just sat, sat me down and said, , went through my CV, and she said, You could do this. And then, and then she said, and I'm gonna give you a fake interview, and you're gonna stand there, and you're gonna, it was the most I still have my blood run cold remembering it's like, the hardest and most embarrassing thing is to stand in front of your friends or peers. And, and it was absolutely brilliant. She was fantastic. And then ever after, if I had a very, very important speech, or something or interview, I would always test it in front of Anne. And she would say, and I would say, oh, no, forget, forget that I didn't, she's like, No, I'm not going to, you have to start it. You can't just stop, you got to carry on. She was my hardest critic, and still remains to this day. In fact, but so I think practice is important, especially if you, if you need that boost of confidence. And now because I do so many, I do many talks and lectures and so forth. I'm a bit, I have a your way. Yeah, bit more confidence, as you said, it's a muscle memory. Yeah.
Ayo Abbas
Hi, it's Ayo here and I just wanted to interrupt the show quickly, to say a bit more about what I do. I'm a digitally-led marketing consultant, and I specialise in working with built environment firms, just like yours, I think there's so much more that AEC firms can do to make the most of the digital marketing opportunity. And if it's something that you would like to explore working with me how to make the best of online and in person worlds, then do get in touch, email me at Ayo, which is Ayo@abbasmarketing.com and let's have a chat. How does I guess? How does your architecture what you do in terms of architecture and the Quality of Life Foundation? How do they all connect together? Or what do you think is the thing that you bring to those roles?
Sadie Morgan
Well, I think it's very well documented, but I was brought up in a community, a commune in at my grandfather started, and I've, I have a very deep rooted sense of the importance of looking after other people. And often, , I mean, I never actually listened to myself. If I did, I'm sure I'm going to be rolling my eyes at myself. And it's not a pious thing. It's just, that's, I mean, it's that is in me is inbuilt in me, and so I, I spend a lot of time and effort and energy trying to ensure that anything that I do, or if I have the ability to change, it's around how do we make this better? How for the communities that it serves, how can we ensure that as, as built environment experts, we are actually improving people's quality of life. And the foundation was set up on the back of my slight annoyance at the time about the conversation going back to aesthetics is it traditional? Is it modern? And I'm like, do people actually care? , and then I got shot down by the architectural profession, of course, like of they care! , so I am, like, well, probably the fact that it, , is it a Petri for a flat roof is less important to them than has it got mould running down? , can they do they have a good view? Is it big enough? Does it have a garden or some green space in walking distance does it, all of these things that make a difference to people's quality of life. So, I think that it's, it's trying to shift the focus, if I can, into a conversation that very often is around cost, money, time, to saying, actually, can we just look at this a bit more holistically, can we think about how all of these different decisions can be drawn together? And can we do something that is has the best outcome for the planet for people as opposed to what can often be quite narrow conversation. and I say, particularly in an infrastructure space. Around, often it's just saying, just stop, sit up, look around let's think about have a little bit more three dimensionally in our thinking not not
Ayo Abbas
not just let's put up five offices, this that other, the home houses that you're going to work as a as an ecosystem. Yeah,
Sadie Morgan
yeah. And I think there's a lot of good strategic thinking that could be done, about how we design and deliver our infrastructure, our homes in a way that is much more cohesive, and has a much smaller footprint on the, , on the planet's resources, and then so,
Ayo Abbas
and how receptive were people to that message?
Sadie Morgan
Very, I think they're very receptive once they, I think actually just going back to how you communicate that. I think if I've learned anything over my career, it's that you need to have conversations that aren’t aggressive. And I get I often say I'm a critical friend. So I won't try to embarrass people or roll my eyes or just say, you're serious, you haven't
Ayo Abbas
no you can't embarrass people, that's the worst.
Sadie Morgan
Yeah. So I think that it's that sort of, okay. We do have, we need to work on this, we need to think hard about how to draw this policy through, or we need to have a policy even, how do we sort of culturally embed this in an organisation? How do we deal with these things. So I try and be a positive help and support as to, as opposed to somebody who's just having a go, because it's not good enough, or it needs to do better, or whatever it might be. So I think that there's, there's a lot to be said about the way in which you work with people in order to try to help them to improve on the things that you're interested in.
Ayo Abbas
Also, the Quality of Life Foundation or in your the graphics, the design, how you communicate and structure. It's, it's beautifully done. Yeah. And that's an important part, I guess, in part of getting the message out and getting people on board. And I'm guessing that visual style as well. Yeah.
Sadie Morgan
So that I mean, I can't No, I don't think so. So, it's my brother and me who set the foundation up. Yeah. Matthew, and, and because he runs the foundation, I've now stepped away, because we're a charity. And it's, that doesn't, yeah. But he does an extraordinary job. And he is a great communicator, and he really does understand the, I think the importance of getting all of those things, right. That's the community, the sort of it isn't good enough just to sort of, say things you have to commit as so many different ways. We'll take the messages in a different way, don't we? Yeah. So I think I think that the team, he's got an amazing team there. And they really, they really understand that. And I think, as you say that that sort of draws through everything that they do. Yeah, really impressive.
Ayo Abbas
And I was gonna say, in terms of the opportunities that have come from you finding your voice, are there things that you sought out or they, come to you as a result of what you were doing?
Sadie Morgan
That's a really good question. A bit of both. I think that now, and again, there are things that, frankly, have just really annoyed, or it's like, Why isn't anyone doing this? Why is this? Well and I'm like, well, actually stop moaning about it. Think about it. Yeah. So a number of the Quality of Life Foundation was around actually just going around to developers and saying, Come on, , you've got a responsibility. And at the time, the late Tony Pidgley was incredibly generous and help set the foundation. And so that there was this then often it's me, just one, it's like, how can you get coalesce a group of people who can help you do something? Yeah. And of course, the more you do those sorts of things, the more people then ask you to help do them. So it's a sort of you become somebody who's identified in, it's like, oh, Sadie can help ya And I've always struggled saying no. And I always try to help. And I think now I'm so very busy that I'm, I've learned that you can, like, over promising is worse almost in saying, No and I’m a needy person I like people to like me so I need to also get over that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, I tend to sort of say, Oh, yes, yes, of course I'll help her out. And then and letting people down is terrible. So I've got better actually, in fact, my great friend, Alison Nimmo, who's an complete inspiration and mentor to me, as she said, Sadie, you can she gives me she gives me good talking to and saying you don't always just have to give, give, give sometimes you can say, you can say no.
Ayo Abbas
I mean, it's interesting, because I was talking, I think, tickets have been talking about finding your voice and things. And it was interesting, because I did a, I did an article that came out last week about whether the architecture professional is imploding. Because I'm like, there's a lot of noise around what's not working in the profession. But no, it's not so much talk about solutions, which is one of those things, and I’m going actually, how do we address this rather than whispers in corners of that race like that? and it's quite interesting that a lot of people don't express their opinions. Yes. And why do you think that is, or
Sadie Morgan
I think that the increasingly you're in a, , a world where you can be caught out, and the more senior you are, or the more responsibility you hold, the easier it is for people to pick a hole or find something you've said, take it out of context. I gave a lecture the other day, for example, and, , I'm always honest, but sometimes you have to be a little bit careful about the things that you say, and of which I am, but often I be if you're I overshare. And somebody came up and very sweetly said that was such a great lecture. Thank you so much. You were so open, and it was great. You're when you answered the questions, so honestly, and I'm like, yeah, it's fantastic. Because it makes such a difference. Sometimes when you're not they're not being recorded. Yeah. And she, she went white as a sheet, she said, Oh, no, we did record. oh god! So, you're so there's a sort of, I think we have to be a bit careful that we allow people to say or test things out in the open. Sometimes you test something by saying it, , to a group of people, and they say, No, that's really not that's not, that's not good, because of these reasons. So, then you debate it, and you may change your mind at the end of it. But if you're not able to say, Oh, I'm not sure I agree, because what about this? Or what about that? Yeah. And if you're very risk averse, or you're cautious about having those conversations, then I think it's I think we have to be very careful about allowing people safe space, a safe space to have those conversations,
Ayo Abbas
and also to learn and test right, because I think that's the issue. But it's I guess it's interesting, because saying that I'm just thinking, like, because I guess we've got into this whole soundbite world now, haven't we? Yeah. Where actually on socials, you've got, what, 60 seconds? what I mean? It's all a lot more. Yeah. So, you lose the context, or you lose the nuance, and you lose all the kinds of stuff around something. Yeah, I guess there is more of a risk, isn't there that someone will just go Sadie just said this? Yeah. It's like, actually, no, you didn't hear the whole context of that.
Sadie Morgan
But I think also, what's interesting, just expanding on that a little bit and saying, Actually, I often have, like, high level conversations with people who are struggling and confused about certain issues, and they, whether it be around gender, race, and then it's, I will. I don't I, I desperately want to do the right thing. But I'm not entirely clear about how to do it. And I don't know, should I say this? And can I say that and, , as the rules change, the rules changed the whole time. And I think that we, we need to allow people a bit of flexibility, a little bit of flexibility. And I think particularly a generation, an older generation who are, have not I'm not excusing it, but have very, very learned behaviours. And sometimes, you need to rather than pull them up, you need to pull them up about if they say something inappropriate or wrong, but you have to do so in a way that says. No, that's not an appropriate thing to say, rather than saying. Do what so and so said this and immediately condemning them to be very embarrassed
Ayo Abbas
because that's gonna make me shut down as well. Right?
Sadie Morgan
I think so. And there is a I think there's, there's, there's, we just have to be, I think, as us, it's about context is about context, it's about the meaning behind something often, as opposed to just immediately saying, take taking the words and reading something into them that isn't, isn't right.
Ayo Abbas
And I guess, what’s on the horizon for you next, what are you looking to do? Or are there any new things on the horizon? To champion or push or do Yeah, I'm
Sadie Morgan
very interested actually, in thinking about how to support and help organisations to deal with difficult things. And I run this soirees which invite women to come and hang out together. And there's no agenda is just a great evening, where senior women are allowed to bring along one woman who would never get to be in, in their presence. And we have really great places we go. Lovely food, lovely wine, and it's just a very, very supportive, wonderful atmosphere. And, and I'm looking to think, well, actually, there's a, there's a huge untapped resource out there of women, particularly, who maybe they've left the profession they're looking to get back in, they don't know how they've, they're super talented, but they don't have the CV. And I think there's real opportunity for a programme or agency that says, Okay, we know that businesses have very difficult problems and issues that they don't always want to share. But they need help to sort through and work out. So yeah, I've been thinking about setting a business up to help help do that. And Charlie's Angels that come in, you get three amazing professional women from lots of different walks of life, they bring with them, a woman who would never get to sit at that table. And they help and support an organisation to unlock some tricky issues or project or whatever it might be. So watch this space.
Ayo Abbas
I was gonna say she's like, girl in that together. Yeah, I love it. You get all these ideas? And you see, I guess, you see the issues, and you're like, alright, what can I do? And it's great. It's
Sadie Morgan
yeah, I think I think it's a lifetime of either cheering panels or sitting on panels that are supportive of you. So, you bring a group of people together to help bring a different perspective to a knotty, difficult problem. And, and you're, you're not saying we're going to solve that problem, but you're going to say, we're going to look at that we're going to help you to look at that problem from different angles. And it's incredible how often people are like, you can't see the wood for the trees. You're so involved, and you're so strong out by the time you've got to the point where you need help. You're probably really dug yourself in a deep hole. Yeah. And so you need you don't need to bring in the big consultancy teams who are going to alarger 10 cage. Yeah, exactly. And then, and then, , write this humongous report, you just need a group of people to come in and say, Okay, this is a safe space we can have, we can have some difficult conversations, and we can help you get out of this hole and doing so you're going to help you're going to help some women in this instance, because as well as having these three amazing high profile women, you're gonna they're going to bring with them, , some women who are gonna get to sit at this table and have this conversation and get the experience of being in this situation. So I think there's plenty of ways in which we can use, as I said before, untapped talent or groups of people who need to be included and who aren't included in and who have such valuable insight and such valuable perspective to, , to, to sort of come come into the, into the professional and any profession doesn't have to be this one. Yeah. Fantastic.
Ayo Abbas
So my final question, so any tips for someone looking to find their voice? What how would you say they could get started?
Sadie Morgan
I think the first thing to do is just be like. Just be honest. And be you will only have integrity if you talk about things that matter to you. And that you have some knowledge about, and I think you will have knowledge, much more knowledge about some things than you expect. I was, I was so embarrassed about my upbringing, I found it I was different to loads of people, I had a very different upbringing, I'd never talked about it. But it shaped me and it, it made me the person I am. And the minute I started having the confidence to talk about it, I found that people were really interested. And, , and I was like, Oh, they actually are interested in this. And, and, and so it's actually become a cornerstone is the thing that I talk about. And because it's shaped me and it's it's shaped my views and the things that I'm interested in. So I think the first thing to do is say, don't try and be anyone else don't try and, , , me reading the Financial Times, and the , the money section is like, don't go that sad, because you're never going to be on board. And also, you're never gonna be able to speak with any authority on this. So people are automatically going to think well, she's, uh, that I can say the word. what I mean? So, yeah, find find something you're good at. And you can still read up about I mean, it doesn't stop you learning about it, and so I think that, yeah, find what that is, and then speak confidently about it, and people will find you interesting. And then people find you interesting and wants to talk to you. towards you. Right. That's the thing. It snowballs. Yeah,
Ayo Abbas
yeah. Anyway, on that lovely note, thank you so much for coming onto the show. pleasure
Sadie Morgan
and thank you for inviting me.
Ayo Abbas
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on abbasmarketing.com. And of course, if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
