Ep 46: Brand It's Personal, Dominique Staindl, Christopher Moore & Ayo Abbas
Today’s show is a bit of a collab with BuildUp – a built environment marketing community network. This episode is about personal brand and is taken from a fireside chat online session that I participated in earlier this week.
The interviewer is Dom Staindl and the other speaker is Chris Moore from Price and Myers.
This podcast was recorded as a fireside chat webinar earlier this week.
In this episode you’ll hear about:
What personal brand is and why everyone has one
The importance of reputation, credibility and visibility
How personal brand brings opportunities
How to get started if you’re an introvert
How to support your colleagues with their personal brand
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Transcript.
Hi and welcome to the Built Environment Marketing Show hosted by me, Ayo Abbas. Before the show begins, I just wanted to do a bit of an intro to this very special episode, which is a recording of a webinar that I took part in earlier this week. Looking at brand, it's personal. This session was for Build Up, which is a network of marketing communications professionals from the built environment. And what we wanted to do was have a session where we talked about personal branding, company brand, and how I guess you can make it work for our businesses, but also for ourselves as marketeers. I'll put some notes in the show notes about build up so you can find out more about us as a community. And if you're interested in joining. Now, let's get on a listen to the webinar. Hope you enjoy it.
Dominique Staindl 00:52
Welcome, everybody. Welcome to the second Build Up event of the year and the first online event that we've run in a little while. My name is Dominique Staindl, I'd like to welcome you all to this fireside chat about personal branding in a professional setting. For those of you who are new build up is a networking community for the built environment, set up and run voluntarily by our fabulous and friendly steering committee, most of whom you'll find on this call, and you can identify on our website and on LinkedIn posts as well. Now, a testament to the interest in today's topic is that we've had hundreds of online subscribers well, maybe just 100 so far but we'll get those numbers up. And yet the concepts, the concept of brand itself or personal brand is often misunderstood. Or it's placed in a box or it's simply left alone for fear that it's not relevant to me being you, the audience. So here to change your mind, to debunk any myths and share their wisdom this afternoon are two of the best people for the job. And fellow build up steering committee members Ayo Abbas of Abbas Marketing. So Ayo runs her own marketing business, managing content and campaigns for engineers and architects across the UK. And Chris Moore. Chris is the Head of Communications at Price and Myers and is a hardcore brand enthusiast. I'll be asking them questions. But most of all, we want your comments in the relevant comment boxes on whichever platform you're tuning in from today, be it LinkedIn or Streamyard. So that's enough for me, let's get the conversation started. Ayo I am going to start with you, what is personal brand?
Ayo Abbas 02:32
So I think that I mean, there's tonnes of definitions out there. But for me, the main one that really stands out, is it's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. I think thats a really lovely definition because you can put what you like about yourself out I guess, into the world but actually, it's what people actually take in what they understand and how they communicate it to others. So for me personal brand is really around that. And it's really important because ultimately people do business with people. And you know, that human connection, that human touch that human relationship. So I think that whole thing around personal brand is about, I guess what you convey to the world, but also what the world kind of takes in about you.
Dominique Staindl 03:15
And Chris, what about you? How do you see it as different to your reputation?
Chris Moore 03:20
Well, as I should start off by saying that not everyone agrees with me on this, but including some very influential sort of business teachers and authors. So feel free to disagree with me. But I've always advocated for treating B2B communications in the same way as b2c communications because people that people and as Ayo said, we like doing business with people. And I think that similarly, about brand for business and personal brand, that there are a number of sort of significant overlaps. I think the first thing to really acknowledge is that you have a personal brand, whether you like it or not, I think we all do. I've heard people say to me, I don't have a personal brand. And I'm like, if you actively don't have a personal brand, that is your personal brand, that is actually it. Your reputation is related to personal brand. I think there is overlap, but I think they are slightly different to me, reputation is a more passive quality. You know, the the first impressions that you make the way others see you, you know, you know, I think that Well, there's a guy Michael Eisner, who was a former CEO of Disney Corp, and he said that brand is made up of 1000 gestures and I kind of see that as a brand is everything, it's the little bits of everything. And that includes your reputation. But I see brand and as a result personal brand is a much more active process. You know, if your reputation is how people see you, your personal brand is how you want people to see you. You know, it's your to your value and what you stand for and it's what you're about. And you need a good reputation to be credible, but I think a good personal brand helps make you visible,
Ayo Abbas 04:53
and visibility is the key there. Definitely.
Dominique Staindl 04:55
Yeah, do we need a personal brand?
Ayo Abbas 04:57
I think you've got to have a personal brand. Why? because if you don't, if you don't manage it, then it's up, you're just leaving it completely open for people to make up their own connotations or own your own versions of who you are and what you do and what you're about. So I think in some ways, it's, it's up to you to kind of convey who you are, and put it out there. And I think like Chris says, we all do have a personal brand. So I think it's very much about, kind of, what is it that you want to be known for? And I think, yeah, I think more, personally, I'm always, like, more marketers should be out there with their own personal brands, and not just be hiding in the shadows behind the people, we can't live feed and support. Because I think that's a huge thing that we don't do. We don't talk to people, as individuals, because we're highly, no, we're highly qualified, highly skilled, we're experts in what we do, but often, we are hidden away, and we don't have our own personal brands, but we leave it to our companies. And I think that's a huge kind of missing part in what we do.
Chris Moore 05:54
Yeah, and I think it comes back to that kind of active process, Ayo as you say, you know, I absolutely believe that everyone has a personal brand, whether they like it or not, and, and your personal brand is about what you stand for, and, you know, demonstrates your value, and can help you just achieve what it is that you want to achieve, whether it's for your work or for your business. And like a, like a business's brand helps those opportunities come towards you, rather than having to always be sort of rolling up the sleeves and, and out there, digging for gold.
Dominique Staindl 06:27
And other different considerations for people working in house and those who are sort of consulting or business owners, for example,
Chris Moore 06:35
There are but again, they are related, I think if you're in house, then you can be, I'm sure you guys can all think of examples of this way, you know, you've got the right education, you've got the right experience, you're really hard working, um, you're really well liked. But people might not know you really well within, the within your practice or your business. And I don't just mean that they don't recognise your face as you come through the door, or they can't put a name to your face. You know, we're all sort of active enough in our businesses for that, but that people don't necessarily know what you stand for. And again, coming back to the thing, personal brand for me is about making yourself visible. It's about what you value. And you know, what you work to project. And those two things have to align to be truly authentic, I think, to truly resonate. And it means that your voice is just more easily heard that your ideas are better received, that you're more clearly differentiated within your business. And that you can, therefore more clearly differentiate your business because that's what we do, right? Most of us on this call, as a result of that. I think if you're a consultant, you're running your own business, then all of that is also true. But you know, you're sort of directing that at people who are already paying you and people that you hopefully want to be paying you sometime in the future. What's your take on it, Ayo?
Ayo Abbas 08:00
I guess I'm a consultant, and I set up a month before lockdown, so in terms of my personal brand, I wasn't probably going out as much because I, you know, I'm a single mom. So quite often, I'm home. So I had been planning to go out, start to network and build up my personal brand that way, but that was kind of taken away, with locked down. So for me building a personal brand, getting myself out there, which was very much online. So finding that kind of tone of voice and create my personal brand, understanding what it was that I stood for, what my business would stand for, that all kind of came to the fore for me when I started working for myself. So it kind of, it rose in its importance, but also, it's taken a while to build. So, you know, I've been at this now for three years. And actually, now I'm getting referrals because people know what I stand for or do or they go Oh, actually I know someone who does that. You know, and I think that type of thing it takes time to build. So I think whether or not you're working in house or for yourself or you might have ambitions to work yourself at some point, your personal brand is yours, right? And I think if you start building it now even just starting to do what things once a month about things that now to show who you are that's going to build and stay with you for your whole career. So I think that's the important part of personal brand and why more marketers across the piece in house or working for themselves should do it. I think it's around it builds reputation of who you are and you know it's yours to own
Chris Moore 09:32
and I think you two are actually really good example of that sort of you know, that your personal brand is really what people buy when they buy your services, that you know that it's clear what you two are about and you know, occasionally commissioned consultants to come and work with me as well. And when you've got that really clear position that you two do and I know many other people on the call and you're in build up. You know that's, that's really powerful, but it also really helps with trust. You know, you are differentiated. And, you know, people understand what you're about. And that just makes it easier to trust you and to know that they're going to get the result that they want.
Ayo Abbas 10:12
But also, I think it's also it also, it also can repel people not us in particular, But you know, that whole thing whereby it's like, actually, if you're not into these types of issues, that maybe I'm not the consultant for you. People in that way, if you want someone who's quiet and reserved, maybe coming to me is not the thing, you know. And that's it. And I think your personal brand kind of conveys that and says that, and it's, you know, who you are, what you like to work with that experience. And I think that's what it does. And also, I think it also creates value as well, because you turn around and go, then people start to associate, you know, certain things of you what you can do, the types of firms you're working with. And again, that's a value, you know, it's valuable in terms of how much you can charge, right? Same thing for companies.
Chris Moore 11:01
That's spot on, I think that you know, Dom and I share this conversation, we were just chatting about someone's personal brand, I don't know, a week or two in preparation for this call. And Dom, you know, you were a little bit like, Oh, this feels a little bit dry or a little bit quiet. And it's kind of like, Yeah, but what's that person's market? I don't know what their market is, I don't know what they're going after. And this is they're on LinkedIn. And it's, you know, it's, they may not be trying to target me, I may not be in their market, that still might be a lovely person. And I would enjoy having a chat with them. But it's that they are not presenting the sort of thing that I would be looking for, but their market might.
Ayo Abbas 11:40
Exactly, and I think it is the whole thing of yeah, you can have repelling content. You're not into these issues. Maybe I'm not the person, but thats fine
Chris Moore 11:49
Let's not repel anyone lets say not necessarily engaged people.
Dominique Staindl 12:01
What I understand you to be saying Ayo, is that it's clarifying piece. So it helps identify whether or not you know, there's a personality chemistry, check there. But what about I mean, as comms folk where we understand the value of brand. And it's easy for us to put ourselves out there because we write and because we speak as part of our jobs. What about I want to pick up on Isabelle's question here? Because she's, she's voiced essentially what I was going to ask next? And what about the experts who don't have to do that, but don't think that they're, you know, what they've got to say is valuable or unconfident about what they how they can say what they need to say, in order to create a brand, or is it about saying things out loud? Can you help differentiate, that?
Ayo Abbas 12:45
Um, I think for me, if I, you know, everyone's not going to always want to have something to say. And I think you're right, as comms people were in that predisposition that we help people say stuff. But I think there's, you know, I sometimes I think, if you've got someone who isn't that confident, I'm going to talk about LinkedIn, because that's probably where I used what I use the most. But I would say that whole thing I mean, they could just connect and engage. And that could be their strategy on LinkedIn. So like, connecting with relevant people, and just comment in supporting the types of people that they want to, you know, connect with and work with. And you know, and that could be your personal brand, is that actually, no, I'm just a very supportive person who shares my thoughts and opinions, but on someone else's post. So you don't really need to post yourself directly, but you still start to build up a network, and people will still start to see you. And you still have visibility, even if you're not posting directly. So I think those kinds of softer ways are easier. So you don't always have to be like, I guess, marketers, we generally we were quite happy to be more open. Whereas I think, yes, some engineers and some architects we work with, aren't necessarily like that. And I think there are different ways of tackling personal brand that aren't so visible. And you know, if you're not a speaker, then you know, you could be writing for any for a magazine or sharing your expertise there, there's lots of different ways you can kind of share your voice and your opinion, it doesn't have to be so in your face.
Chris Moore 14:07
Yeah, I think from from our point of view, I mean, you know, that you can lead a horse to water as it were. I think it's about the intent that if somebody wants to sort of, you know, have a bigger presence, or a bigger voice, then that's part of what we do to assist people in that way. And you know, from an in house point of view, I always say to people, look for internal opportunities first, because then you're talking to an audience that knows you and knows what you hopefully knows what you're about to a certain degree. And so I always talk about, are there regular speaking opportunities in your business? Is there a morning coffee or lunch meet? Do you do knowledge sharing sessions, and just to contribute to them when and where you can? If there's a two minute update on what your group has been doing in your practice, is there a question you can ask the speaker of the day, you know, get used to putting your hand up and just, you know, saying something. And over time, you know, in terms of being a speaker, you will get better. You know, I You may not believe this, but I am shy to the point of utter introversion, like literally, you know, when I was a kid growing up, my local shopkeeper used to call me the judge, because I never said a word and I didn't smile. And I forced myself to become a competent speaker. You know, it's your old mate from Manchester, Morrissey said that shyness is nice and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you want to, that is true. And personal brand, you know, is about visibility. So if this is something that you want to develop, you got to get out of your comfort zone a little bit, you've got to do things, but you can be gentle, and you can start slow. And I always say, look for internal opportunities first, before you jump out with an opinion piece on LinkedIn or go and give it a go and give a presentation to the NLA or something like that.
Ayo Abbas 15:56
I guess. I love that idea. And it's that scaling part, isn't it, you just scale up as in terms of what you're doing in incremental steps? And I think that definitely is the way to do it. And before you know, yeah, before you start, kind of broadcasting stuff, because yeah, can be a bit like woah!
Dominique Staindl 16:15
So, then what's the value? Why, Why should anyone be doing this?
Chris Moore 16:18
That's a golden question, isn't it? Well, as I said earlier, I think it's about as with any brand, it's about making, your, your career. In my case, if I'm talking about in house again, and your businesses life easier, it's about you know, rather than having to constantly be going out, the better you develop your brand, the more those opportunities come to you. And they can be promotional opportunities within your business, they can be, you know, if you're in a position within your business, that you need to go out and win work. If you develop your your personal brand, then you can really help your business. And that's a virtuous circle that can help you and your business grow. Ayo, you'd probably want to comment on Linkedin here as well, and some stats that we were talking about earlier on.
Ayo Abbas 17:07
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, in terms of LinkedIn, which is just the kind of thing that I love, they've got their kind of employee advocacy research piece, and it says, like, you know, employee networks are 10 times more connections than their company page. But only 3% of employee, employers, employees actually share content about their company. So if I post something as Ayo, rather than Abbas marketing, it's more, it's gonna get much more traction and I think that's where company pages and stuff on LinkedIn aren't necessarily doing the right stuff, because in some ways posting on your company page may actually be secondary. In some ways, what you might want to do is actually have different variations and encourage your people to actually be posting themselves directly, but you give them the tools to do it, and to tailor it in their own way, and then you tag your company. Because actually, you get more reach and reach far more people. And also having their opinions helps your company page anyway. So it's kind of like looking at it in that kind of way of actually, how do you make it more valuable? And how do you make it provide more value to the individual but also to the business? And I think there's also this thing about how do you get your teams and your people to actually want to kind of do this kind of interaction, because the whole kind of employee advocacy piece is huge. But I think in terms of value that having a personal brand brings to me personally, I get opportunities that come through the door, you know, I've had a journalist literally from The Times take a blog I wrote on Linkedin and put it in a piece. And that's, I didn't have to do anything. They just email me and said I've seen this on your Linkedin, can I use it? You know, and that kind of stuff doesn't he's not going to find that on my website but because of LinkedIn, it was on the first page of Google when he did his search. So I think in terms of value that Linkedin, LinkedIn personal brand can bring to you, is a huge amount. And I think it's that whole opportunities, and also people with, you start getting, once people understand what you do, people start coming to you. And that's the lovely part when you're not chasing down work. It actually comes through the door. And if you're a company just helps your pipeline no end. Yeah, when people can actually understand who you are and what you're doing.
Chris Moore 19:17
Likewise,if you're in house is exactly that to you know, and and Mea culpa, you know, I, I really take on board what you've just said there Ayo, without turning this into a Linkedin tutorial, but you know, our company page for Price and Myers does very moderate engagement. But we've got a couple of really experienced and quite well known engineers. And we had a partner, Tim Lucas, who's an engineer here who you may know, and really clever guy, and he literally, he's like his first Instagram post. You don't know us, sorry, at LinkedIn. He'd only used LinkedIn just to sort of keep up with what's going on. And then he put a post up about a structure that he had repurposed and put in his kids primary school as a play climbing frame. And my god if it didn't get 1000s and 1000s of likes, and I'm kind of like, that was a little bit of a 'bing' moment for me, it's kind of like oh crap, we've got to get, we got to get better at this don't we, we got to get these, these personal brands.
Ayo Abbas 20:13
I mean, it's like literally harnessing that, you haven't, even how often you go engineers going out to site, Chris, if you could harness that, so they could actually understand, actually, I saw this on site, it's really interesting. You know, I've set the parameters, and you don't have to do all of that kind of stuff behind it. But actually, if you can start to enable people to have the confidence to post and share, you know, your work, the amount of engagement you will get, and they will get in connections. And also it helps when clients you know, you meet a client and the clients like, Oh, I saw that post about such and such or, you know, I've held the conversation. Hi, it's Ayo here. And I just wanted to tell you a bit more about the show. The built environment Marketing Show was set up during lockdown one as a way to help firms do better marketing. It was very much about having the conversations that I have with my friends, and showing what best practice really is. In terms of me, well, I'm actually a generalist marketeer. So I guess I know lots of things about marketing and how to pull everything together. So I could be talking about you know, PR, or understanding what to do next strategy wise, or figuring out how to get in front of the right audience or what messaging you should be using. Those are all things that I'm kind of really skilled in and understand how to do for my clients. I now work for myself, and I set up my own consultancy Abass Marketing in 2020. And I'm working with a range of engineering and architectural firms, and even prop tech firms who really want to, I guess, talk the language of their clients and their audiences and do something a bit different in terms of their strategy and content. If what I do sounds of interest to you do email me at Ayo@Abassmarketing.com. And thats a y o, or head to my website, which is www.Abassmarketing.com. For more info, there's also a link in the show notes. Bye
Dominique Staindl 22:05
So talk to me about about employers then and their fear of employees having growing brands.
Chris Moore 22:14
Well, I mean, this is just the battle of our lives, isn't it? If you're a brand person, I think, you know, my take firstly, and again, I've done a brand presentation for build up a couple of years ago, and I talked about brand endlessly. And you know, and it's equally true for personal brands, I think but you know, brand is oxygen for a business. Brand is the thing that can just keep you, keep your breathing. It can be hugely influential for you too, from a personal point of view. And if somebody in your practice doesn't like brand, or or you're a bit nervous about it yourself, or sceptical, then you're restricting your breathing. And, you know, there's a comment that we, when we were talking about this call the other day, there are some employers that don't like their their employees to be too prominent, and from a personal brand point of view, because it makes them attractive for being poached by by other businesses. And I'm kind of like, that's the most warped approach of all time, for me. It's like, your star striker for your football team scores too many goals, so we're going to play him in defence so that nobody thinks he's that good. Or we'll put her in the reserves, so that nobody thinks she's any good. And we can just keep her a secret. I mean, it's just, that's a whole different thing about looking after your people. But you know, let your stars go out there and shine for you. And if people are nervous about the word brand, you know, if your senior people are, I always just try to move them away from the word and just get them to get get them talking about how you're perceived and how you engage and how people engage with you. Because that, to me, that's the sort of essence of brand really, and it makes it easier for people to, to kind of conceive of and not think that somebody is trying to con them out of something, which seems to be the way some people approach brand itself,
Ayo Abbas 24:01
I guess as well, I mean, the personal brand word as well. It's that whole kind of it's got that kind of connection with the word influencer, isn't it, which nobody wants to be because you're like, Oh, you're in love island. But that's the kind of you know, that's the connotation but influencer is actually the right word. It's like a micro influencer. But it's uncomfortable. It's like, you know, even though I'm not a completely guy, when someone says it to me, I'm like, wouldn't be there. But we are all influencers in some way, shape, or form. And I do. And I think the other thing is, like, when we're talking in house, I think, you know, that whole thing about being poached is the thing that, you know, they're always worried about, but that's gonna happen anyway. And the key to me is you've got to have a decent kind of CRM system , a decent company page, that you are actually capturing these conversations and meetings and all of that stuff, and have that data and AI systems to support personal brand and related relationships. So it's kinda like you are capturing that data. So it's not just about that one person and you are bringing them into your kind of wider marketing ecosystem. I think that's really what firms, aren't necessarily doing anyway and that applies to all marketing activity, not just personal brand. So I think that's the bigger issue. That's harder to crack than saying, just don't post, don't raise your personal brand because you'll go, it's like, no, you build a system around so that your whole marketing engine works properly.
Chris Moore 25:22
I think this subject could be a whole other call to be fair.
Ayo Abbas 25:26
or get angry.
Dominique Staindl 25:31
I'm gonna go to another question, because I think it's a doozy. Laura Thomas is asking she's navigating change with personal brand? Well, I don't know whether she is but navigating change with personal brand. Any tips? How does one navigate that change in their personal brand?
Chris Moore 25:49
Oh, that's good, I think incrementally is the probably the best response. And you've either, what are your options incrementally or a big bang. I think if you're trying to sort of change your position, for whatever reason, and I don't know, again, we'd probably delve more deeply into this in terms of what the characteristics are from for personal brand change. But to me, it comes about what do you value? What do you stand for? What are you trying to convey, it's an active process, to actually have people take on board, what you what you want them to know and feel about you. So I would just say, if you feel like your personal brand is not in a good position at the moment, that a little bit of self analysis, find out within yourself what it is that you really want to get across. And then incrementally if you're in house, as I say, start off with some of these internal opportunities, you know, tend the garden of your LinkedIn account, turn up to things and ask questions, you know, all of those sort of simple things get, if you want to get known for something else, you just have to incrementally build that up over time. Little bit, like what you were saying, when you started your business, Ayo.
Ayo Abbas 26:57
Exactly, and I think I think that's exactly it. I mean, I often talk about content pillars, and kind of what's the kind of three key areas that you want to discuss, or wherever you want to take your brand. And, you know, like mine are me, I like talking about myself. But that's about my skills, what I do, my education, all that kind of stuff. But then there's like the mark, you know, marketing. So marketing and in the vein of I'm interested in innovation, I'm interested in, know how to do kind of marketing better and improving it. And then also around, kind of, the built environment, So that whole kind of I know the industry we're in. So that's generally what my three pillars are. And I think those pillars are quite broad, but they can evolve and change and kind of slightly shape, depending on what's interesting at that time, or what things I have to sell, or what things I want to do. So I think having that kind of framework or something that is who you stand for, and that can evolve. But I think having something like that can help you kind of navigate change and give you a structure to kind of start working towards. So I find that quite useful in terms of kind of having that kind of content pillar approach. And it kind of it just keeps me on track now and then you get a completely random post for that for something all you need. But generally, it's over that.
Chris Moore 28:12
Random is good, keep people on their toes, that's fine.
Dominique Staindl 28:15
Well, speaking of random and sort of, veering a little bit of Laura's comment, I noticed that we've got, so we've got someone from Abu Dhabi here and someone from Texas. Let's just talk about audiences, because I mean, this is really important as well, either, you know, you could be someone young, who doesn't think they've got anything to say or doesn't know how to reach the ears or the eyes that they need to. But we've also got sort of a global world now. So how do we navigate our own personal brand, when we're trying to sort of reach audiences that we, you know, that we might not know about, or we don't know, sort of how to connect with otherwise?
Chris Moore 28:55
A question without notice that's really tricky!
Dominique Staindl 29:06
Here I was going off script, never go off script.
Ayo Abbas 29:08
I mean, for me, I think that whole kind of personal brand globally global brand, or I think it's the same structure, I don't think it makes any difference. Because ultimately, I think most marketing, that is I'm doing more and more stuff. It's like, it boils down to messaging, targeting and positioning, right. Regardless, if you're looking at globally, it would be easier than looking at locally. And I kind of think it's still those key facets. And if it was a global audience and you might just use slightly different language or, you know, this perspective of the examples that you share will be more global in nature, and stuff like that. And you bring that more into the context of how you explain things, but really, I think it's kind of like, yeah, the messaging targeting and positioning I still think that's the same framework, and then you just apply it in the right I guess level.
Chris Moore 30:00
Yeah, and it's about aligning, again, I'm talking more from from an inhouse point of view, but aligning what you're trying to achieve with what your business is trying to achieve. And then yeah, finding out what those targets are, learn more about those areas that you're trying to sort of, get more traction on. But I think that, you know, if so, for example, our practice was trying to win work in the United States of America, then I'd be looking to say you just do that research and just know your market and, and present yourself in a way that feels authentic, and see if it resonates. And I think that that's, you know, it's, it's easy to say this when you're a bit older, but if you know, even if you're younger, and you're starting out, sort of thinking about your personal brand, you know, that alignment isn't conformity, it's not just about doing the thing that you think your business will reward you for doing. It's actually sort of saying that sometimes I'm, you know, this is pretty, I think I'm known as a bit of a contrarian when it comes to brand. And I kind of like sort of upsetting people a little bit, you know, the hundreds of times I've started a sentence with, I know, you're not gonna like this, but hear me out. You know, sometimes it's actually, okay, I can know a lot about what that person wants or what that market wants. But that doesn't align with my values. That's not what I'm about, or it's not what this business is about. And again, you've got a little bit of education there. And then the preparedness to take a stand or not.
Ayo Abbas 31:27
Yeah, and I also think there's also this element of passion as well, actually finding those issues, and those areas that you feel passionate about and care about, and happy to talk about. Because after a while, you'd be like, okay, got three content buckets, I don't like those buckets, it's gonna be like eurgh, but like, but so I think you've got to find those sweet spots. And that seems that you know, where you can kind of really add something to that conversation. And that might take some work to find. And that can evolve and change over time as well. So for me, I think it's finding those areas as well. Yeah. And then that's what you want to convey to people.
Dominique Staindl 32:01
So So that's about authenticity. Let's talk about that in extension to the human versus technology. So we've got, we've spoken about LinkedIn being a powerful tool. What about our human brands versus AI that's coming in thick and fast? For example, Chris, do you have anything to say about that?
Chris Moore 32:24
Are such it's such a good point Dom, you know, if if we've sort of heard nothing much of from the last few months, it's about the impact of artificial intelligence. And I think, again, personal brand is one of those things that AI is apparently coming for our jobs, we, those of us who are sort of in the creative industries, and writers and presenters and things like that might have thought that we might have been immune, but it isn't true. And I think that there are parts of our jobs, that we should absolutely allow artificial intelligence to come for this and bits that we can hand over for efficiency, but personal brand, if you know if your in house, personal brand is one of those things that's going to help you stay employed, differentiate you from the machine. And you know, as I said, your passions, you know, the, the style and the personality and the interest that you bring, make that part of your personal brand. And that will that will keep your job safe.
Ayo Abbas 33:18
Interesting. So it seems like Chatgpt been kind of in the news for the last couple of months. It's quite interesting seeing some of the kind of conversations happening around that and a lot of people and copywriters and things are quite scared by it. And to me, I like, actually, it's understanding where these tools can help you to do your job. And then understanding where you provide that real kind of extra special sauce wherever you know that your USP and like you say, that's creativity, that's your own personality, that's your own perspective and views. And I think once you kind of got that together, those are the areas which are valuable ones that can't be automated, because that's you. And I think that's kind of what we've all got to start to build. And there's also this kind of interesting thing around things like video and stuff like that actually may become more important going forward because you can see me, you can hear me, you know, I mean they're all like deep fakes as well but
Chris Moore 34:15
If somebody Deepfakes me I will have known, I was really special
Ayo Abbas 34:35
But really what they're is that thing about video and audio actually going to be coming into their own because I'm hearing us, seeing us and it's like not necessarily a Chatgpt machine that you could use that to kind of get your content together, but yeah, it's we've got such an interesting time coming up. But I do think they're, you know, the tools are there to help us do our jobs, and we shouldn't be scared of them. But, you know, we do need to recognise, that you know, some of this stuff they can do way quicker than us. And they're getting a lot better.
Chris Moore 35:04
But it comes back to your original premise Ayo, that people like doing business with people as well. And the more people we can put into how we communicate, then the better off we all are.
Dominique Staindl 35:16
Okay, so, so sticking to social media just for a moment. I think this mark has brought up a topical point of conversation. But this is really relevant for any organisations that are working overseas or in countries where there's conflicts of interest, for example, and I just wanted to sort of he's he's used Gary Lineker, as the as the example, but what you know, what, what are your thoughts on an individual's desire to express or build their personal brand, when that personality conflicts with the brand of their employer? And I know we touched a little bit on employer thoughts and feelings, but but how do we address the conflict? If there is one or the gap? rather,
Chris Moore 36:01
I think Gary Lineker is a great example, actually, because his personal brand is so goddamn strong. You know, follow us on social media, you know, sort of a famous sporting person in this country, spectacularly well known, well known for his views on immigration and refugees and asylum seekers outside of his work on the BBC. And then yeah, when it came into conflict with his employer, his brand was so strong that he was able to use that to his benefit. Now. I mean, it's, it's a unique, and I'd say quite an extreme example, it's much easier to not care about losing your job, if you could. Right. And so I think Gary, Gary's a fairly unique, or at least a rare example. I think, if Mark Chapman from match of the day 2 had been tweeting about asylum seekers, they would have quietly just marched him off the set, and no one would have cared too much. But, uh, but again, it kind of comes back to what I was saying a little bit earlier on about alignment, you know, what your values are, how you are creating your personal brand, and then aligning them with the business that you're in. And you've got, if, if they are unaligned? Well, you've got two options really don't you either work as an as an influence within that business, or you can find one that aligns to how you want to work and live. And you know, I think, I think that he's a great example, but and we should probably all start modelling ourselves a little bit. But he's a bit unique.
Ayo Abbas 37:37
Yeah, I think that you're right, he does have a really strong following and I think it's really interesting one, but I do think there is this whole thing as well. Also having the right policies in place, and the right kind of structures in place, but it doesn't sound like the BBC example that they were following what they should have been doing and stuff like that, even how they tried to discipline him and stuff. And I think there's that whole thing about, you know, actually making sure that you're policy stand up. So you know, what people can and can't do, especially, you know, in social media, you do have to have those policies in place. You've seen those crisis happen in our own sector, you know, with people tweeting racist comments. So, you know, I think, you know, that is a risk, you don't have some people out there on, you know, doing stuff. So I think you do have to have those safeguards in place. Because ultimately, it's the reputation of your company and your business as well. So that stuff does need to underpin it. But I think Gary Lineker, I mean, for himself, I think it's the fact he's been reinstated. And the guy who was trying to say, this is still gonna stand, it's still kind of just about hanging on to his job. I think that says it all, really. But I think that's the case of the BBC, because they've got way more things to fight and do.
Chris Moore 38:46
I think if you, I think if you actually dial this back a little bit, and we sort of took something that wasn't quite so well, that wasn't going to end up on the front page of all the papers in this country, is that, you know, if you're working in a business, and you are trying to affect change, and you are trying to influence that business in a certain way, then even if your sort of personal brand and your personal values are in some way, in conflict with that business at the time, if you've got a strong personal brand, within your business, you are still going to be in a position where you could have more influence than someone who doesn't. And so again, over time, you keep presenting yourself, you keep being true to your values and what makes you passionate. And you might actually find yourself as your voice increases and your visibility increases within the business. I'd say that's definitely the best way that you're going to be able to affect change anyway. And, you know, and if you don't, then you've sort of my take a view on where you work next, but it's still an absolute positive even at a much smaller scale than someone like Gary Lineker.
Ayo Abbas 39:53
Great question though
Dominique Staindl 39:57
We've got a couple of minutes left. I'm going to take inspiration and amalgamate a few questions. How has your developing your personal brand at work affected your, I gues,s your offline you know, your not your personal lives, but sort of the outside of work life, I'm looking for inspiration as to how you guys, I mean, you've touched on it individually, but how it's kind of changed your lives developing your personal brand each.
Ayo Abbas 40:27
Yeah, my personal brand now means that the mum’s school gets know what I do. It does and stuff like that. So there are things where people will just genuinely understand more about the industry, and getting, you know, starting to talk to students and things like that, and being able to kind of Inspire the Next Gen, which is quite good. And those opportunities that coming from, you know, can be personal connections here, like, oh, you work in this type of field and, and stuff like that. It's I think, outside of work, there are kind of things like that, where it's starting to come through, which is quite nice.
Chris Moore 41:04
I don't know if this answers your question, Dom, but I would say that the sort of impact again, it's about authenticity, is that where I start sentences like, you know, I, you're going to hate this, but hear me out. I mean, I do say that to my wife, sometimes when I'm talking about, you know, we're going on a holiday or we'll go to I don't know, an art exhibition or a restaurant or something like that. And it's just kind of the way that the way that I have put myself together in terms of my brand and being a little bit contrarian and a little bit like I want to see what happens, has actually really had an impact on my personal life in a in a lovely way. And occasionally terrifying but mostly really rewarding way. I don't know if that answers your question.
Ayo Abbas 41:46
My 8 year old, does talk about personal brand. I just like branding, and I'm like oh my god and can impersonate me, which is even scarier.
Chris Moore 42:00
Wow, A profession in the theatre beckons.
Dominique Staindl 42:06
I guess what I'm getting at is that the two, the two aren't separate. It's really it's a brand is a representation of you, inside and outside of any professional setting. And, Rachel, I'll just maybe close on this. Rachel sort of was talking about that being really solidified for you Ayo during lockdown, but then sort of the continuation in that legacy afterwards. So that's sort of what I was trying to kind of allude to, of the value of it after you know, because that carried you through really tough time.
Ayo Abbas 42:41
I now understand the question, right. But there also there is, there are people that come up to me when I'm out and about networking, and they'll come up and go, I know who you are. Or they will come and say hello and introduce themselves either via an experiment, either my podcast or something else, but someone to my brand is how they know. So I think that whole personal brand, it helps you to people to know like and trust you ,way more and way quicker. And I think it builds. So over the years, it gets stronger and stronger. So yeah, that's how that helps me. I've got it.
Dominique Staindl 43:13
My terrible question asking skills. Okay, we're gonna wrap up now, do you have any last points to make either of you that you haven't been able to cover? Or you?
Chris Moore 43:24
Actually, I've got? Yeah, I've got two, add to that question, because you're outside of work life. I, it's been a long time since I've been on a date, thankfully. But I just think if you're out there in the dating world, and again, I don't know anything about the apps and all of this, you know, wait to get married, or any of that crap, right. So you do. Really, really be thoughtful of if you're going on to, to one of these dating apps, I think because some of this, I see some social media around, you know, some accounts, one is called tinder banter and another one's called Ask Aubrey. and it's basically read it feeds and Tinder bios and things like that. And they just dreadful and make you just make you want to be vomitous, frankly. So, you know, we might follow that from one perspective. And I think there's probably just one other thing that I wanted to add that I didn't get into the chat. But just as a sort of thing for in-house. We were talking a little bit about, you know, sort of how you might start off slowly and I was talking about the internal opportunities to communicate and to make yourself visible. And there's one I really just wanted to share with everyone because it was one that was shared with me, it was a sort of a thing that was used on me. And I actually thought that's a really nice way to go about things. I had someone I'd given a lunchtime presentation. And there was a junior person, relatively new person in the business that I was working in at the time, who just sort of said, you know, I heard what you said at lunchtime about, you know, attracting the kind of architects that we want to attract and how we're not necessarily reaching all of the people that we want to reach at the moment. And I've got a bit of experience with LinkedIn. And I've got a few questions. And I'd like a bit of advice, can I just pull you aside for 20 minutes and have a bit of a chat. And that was really interesting around that person. And that was a young person, this is going back a while, and you know, sort of eight to 10 years now. And I thought that was a really nice, gentle method for a junior person to start building their personal brand with me as a more senior person in the communications team. And just sort of me to start to get a sense of what this person is about and what they're interested in, and how that can then align with the business. So if you're, if you are, particularly if you're younger, or if you're new to this, this profession, and you're looking to make connections with senior people in your business, and I don't know this might even work out in the consultant world as well. That thing of I can you just give me a bit of advice? Or can I ask you a question about this? Or I've got an idea, can I grab you for coffee, that can be really, really powerful thing to start developing your, your personal brand
Dominique Staindl 45:57
On that we might end so hopefully that's been valuable for people and there'll be another build up event very soon. All right. Thank you everyone for joining us. Take care everyone.
Ayo Abbas 46:08
Take care. Thank you.
Chris Moore 46:10
Thank you.
Ayo Abbas 46:15
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on www.abbasmarketing.com. And of course if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
