Ep 84: Reframing sustainability and climate communications - Part 2, with Rosie Cade and Brigitte Clements
Welcome back to The Built Environment Marketing Show.
Today's episode is part II of a two parter. Make sure you check out part 1 if you haven't had a chance to do so yet. My two amazing guests, Brigitte Clements and Rosie Cade talk about the really important topic of sustainability and climate change which seems to be dropping down in priority of our industry agenda. And if you've got any feedback you'd like to give me do email me ayo@abbasmarketing.com
In this second part of our interview we continue discussion on:
The role of marketing in sustainability
Tips for effective sustainability communication
The importance of networking, learning and community
The role of policy and government
DOWNLOAD OUR FREE SUSTAINABILITY COMMUNICATIONS RESOURCE GUIDE
Resources and links
Loki Architecture and Development
Architects Climate Action Network (ACAN)
UK Green Building Council (UKGBC)
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is hosted by marketing consultant and content creator Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. It is a show that is unashamedly about marketing for architects and engineers, as well as bringing forward voices that we don't always get to hear.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello and we are back. Welcome to, I guess, the first proper, proper full episode of The Built Environment Marketing Show in 2025 so we are changing things up slightly, and we are going to be doing everything in, I guess, themes. So to kick us off, we have our first theme, which is all around sustainability. I will be doing a number of interviews and solo episodes all around sustainability, communications, marketing and climate change, I guess. And I'm gonna get a range of guests to talk about this topic from different angles. And I hope that I guess it gives you more depth and more insight into a particular topic, and it's still really valuable and useful to you. Hopefully you like this new approach. So my first guests are Rosie Cade from rising tide, and Brigitte Clements who owns her own practice and is also a sustainability and transformation consultant, so I thought both of these two would work really well together, because they are both, I guess, forces in what they do and the space, and in terms of what we talk about in the episode, we start to look at their background and how they got into what they do, because I think That's really useful to us, marketers, especially us who want to do more in this space. We also look at the role of marketing in sustainability and climate transformation. We give some tips on how to effectively communicate around sustainability, and then we start to look at the challenges. There are a lot of challenges in terms of sustainability marketing, not least the American election. We also talk about networks and collaboration and how they're so important in terms of making change happen. And finally, we talk about retrofit and sustainability in housing. So it's a jam packed episode, and it's slightly longer than normal, so it's actually going to be split across two weeks. The next episode on this one will be out next week. So yeah, enjoy part one. Take care. Bye.
Ayo Abbas 02:10
Hello and welcome to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Would you like to introduce yourself, Rosie, you can go first. Who are you? Where'd you come from? What do you do? Hi,
Rosie Cade 02:19
I'm Rosie. I am a built environment specialist. I've got about 20 years, which makes me feel quite old, working in comms for developers, investors and neighborhoods as well, and I am now building Rising Tide to focus on industry transformation, and by that we mean strategies to move the sector to be more resilient and more positive, particularly focusing on climate and social impact and Yes, amazing sector, brilliant people, lots happening to move it forward, but we need to move faster. And so we've got a network of really great consultants under our banner. We're currently working with some ambitious developers and impact funders and designers and some membership networks and helping them, I guess, influence the status quo, tell the stories of their innovation and finance and policy and kind of technical
Ayo Abbas 03:11
solutions, and make it appeal to actual people, because that's the most. That's the thing I always think is missing. You're like, come on. It's for people and the planet Brigitte. Would you like to introduce yourself? Please?
Brigitte Clements 03:23
Yes. Hello. So my name is Brigitte Clements. I've got quite a plural background, so it's stitched together, I think before so I am an architect, developer. But before studying architecture and getting involved in this world, I was in the humanitarian field, and then I went into environmental and energy studies, studies, so climate science, I've got a science background, and I used architecture as my medium to, I guess, address, you know, the social and environmental things importance to me. And so I do run a practice. I've got buildings here and abroad which are quite sweet and lovely. On top of that, I do a lot in academia. I teach. I'm running a master's program at the moment at the University here in London, and I am actually having a career pivot. So for the last five years, I've been involved with ay can, which is the architects Climate Action Network, and it's a really inspiring, amazing network of, yeah, volunteers, basically in the built environments, driving climate action, and this is through policy shaping, campaigns, developing, you know, educational tools and resources. So really, really amazing. They're big hitters and but more recently, I'm doing a lot more in climate diplomacy and climate, I guess, negotiating. So it was interesting being involved in this marketing podcast. Yes, because I was thinking, I'm not really, you know, I don't do the kind of PR comms thing very well, but I'd say my everyday, it's actually the only thing that I do is, you know, crafting scenarios and storytelling and getting buy in from people and, you know, finding a great way to communicate that. So that's kind of my, my thing. It's
Ayo Abbas 05:21
so funny, because I know I was looking at your LinkedIn profiles like climate diplomacy, and I it's not a term I'd heard of before. But actually, when you think about it, a lot of it, a lot of it boils down to communication and stories. And it really is. And a lot of the transformation that you're also talking about Rosie as well is also communications and stories are going to be a vital part of that as well to kind of get the message out and get people on board and in order to transform, because that's kind of what we need to kind of take people with us, rather than people running scared from change, which is basically what a lot of the climate stuff needs, right? I
Brigitte Clements 05:56
mean, I do think a lot of this is framing, and I think that because it's, you know, this world has moved so quickly in this and it's impossible tohave your finger on everything. So I think that there's a lot of slight imposter syndrome. I think a lot of people who are very passionate and interested in things feel that they don't have a right to speak up orfake things because they don't know everything, which is an impossibility, but being able to bring things together, know what questions to ask and how to how to kind of find a strategy through that, I think, is actually very empowering.
Ayo Abbas 06:27
So, Rosie, for you, so what are your, I guess, marketing's role, and whatdo marketing professionals what they need to understand about sustainability and climate to kind of be more involved. Do you think, inyour opinion,
Rosie Cade 06:38
I think often sustainability stuff isn't really that complicated. It's just more and more. It just seems like kind of basic common sense, and definitely basic business sense. I think, though, if it seems quite overwhelming, just what I've learned is just keep asking yourself, why? And keep asking yourself kind of who, who needs to know about this? Who stands to gain from this, who will lose out from this. So you start kind of talking about the reason for transition, or the need for transition, and you kind of, you need to really sell that story. And yeah, I think, I think we kind of forget this a little bit. We sort of assume that if we say that transition is needed, then you know, we will follow suite. But we have to keep telling the story about why, why it's
Ayo Abbas 07:21
important to different people? Yeah, no that makes perfect sense. Andin terms of being able to talk about sustainability. I mean, are there any tips from you, Brigitte, when you know, if you're not necessarily a fully trained scientist or whatever, and you're trying to talk about theseissues, any kind of ideas on how to kind of, I guess, get people to be onyour side or be involved.
Brigitte Clements 07:47
Yeah. I mean, I think, look, I mean, you need to tailor what you're talking about to your audience, right? And who is going to benefit from, from whatever it is that you're talking about, right? So if you're talking to developers, maybe you need to shift your focus on,, return investment, cost efficiencies, marketability. If you're talking to end users or tenants, I think you could talk about the value of health and well being, comfort, affordability. You know policy makers, you know you're looking for social impact, regulatory compliance, these kinds of things. So I think one is shifting your narrative to the people that you're you know, who are going to be impacted by it. But you don't need data and facts and statistics, right? We need to be able to emotionally relate to things, right? So, I mean, obviously that needs to be underpinned by, you know, facts and knowledge. But I think, I think the, you know, the storytelling element and the framing of it is really important. So I mean, I think if we look beyond our industry, you know, you have a lot of naysayers, and you have a lot of people that will always kind of throw a little bomb in the works, and they'll say, you know, but you know, the majority of our energy comes from fossil fuels, so we're not going to change. And you know, it's true. If you look at the statistics, it's like, I think it's 80% of global energy consumption is from fossil fuels. I mean, that's right. However, you know, if you look at global investment, into the energy sector, last year, that was $3 trillion and of that, 2 trillion was spent on renewables, that's shows a market shift. Next year, they project that to be 70% of all investment. So what you're seeing is there's two both are true, but what side are you kind of framing? And what you do need to do is capture people's imagination, I think because people want to be a part of something, and you need to frame it in a way that people can get buy in and run with it and do something about it.
Rosie Cade 09:52
Yeah, I totally agree. I think all businesses are going to have to adapt what they're doing right to kind of new ways of living product. Worked new ways of organizing themselves, and marketing is really key to that, because we're natural promoters, but also we help clients understand the market, where they should position themselves in it, how to sort of drive demand for the good stuff they're doing, so that it actually is kind of profitable. Because I think that will shift things much more quickly. I think marketing is bright at the heart
Ayo Abbas 10:22
and as a marketeer, how, what things can we be doing to kind of upskill ourselves? So I think a lot of people want to kind of know I've got a certificate or something that says I've done it before they actually do it, which I don't always think is right, to be honest. But I always think you can, once you start doing it, you can learn it literally on the job. That's how I learn a lot of stuff. Are there particular things we can be doing? Rosie, I
Rosie Cade 10:45
mean, I do read a lot. I'm a bit of a geek because I kind of, I want to know what I'm talking about. So I'm reading about asset managers at the moment, and reading a lot about circularity. So I don't just spout the buzzwords. I actually have some depth behind it. Obviously, there'ssome amazing podcasts. So it's generally like, ironing or at the gym, and, yeah, some really good, like, short courses, you know, like a couple of weeks or a month. It's not something you have to commit to forever. But I think also talking to people, and even quite senior people, I've been quite surprised you kind of you say at the end of the meeting, can I just ask you the difference between an investment manager and a fund manager? And they're generally, like, really happy to explain, and like, some of the stuff that Brigitte and I were talking about when we met, like, specific kind of buyer based material questions, like, how do you really use bamboo? Is it really strong? And just like, having the humility to ask those questions when you're when you're authentically interested in something, I think it's really helped me. Yeah,
Ayo Abbas 11:39
now that's good. That's so cool and so true. And I think that thing about not being afraid to ask, I always say, don't be afraid to ask those stupid or seemingly stupid questions, because I think that is how we all learn as well. And you're right about senior leaders, they're always they're always happy that you're interested,
Rosie Cade 11:53
to be honest, yeah. And totally I think sometimes we are the people in the meetings that are asking the questions, and it's actually really helpful for everyone else in the meeting, and you do it from a comms point of view, don't you? You know, I had a meeting yesterday, which was a kind of two hour meeting. At the end, I just put my hand up and said, Can I just really check we all know, like, why we're doing this, who we're trying to target, which may have seen the student question, but that's a core marketing question, and, like, really helped me understand the brief a bit better. But also,
Ayo Abbas 12:20
I think you asking that question, it also helps frame that meeting. They understand it better, because I think it's so easy to come away from that brief as well, and in terms of kind of your learning style, what's your learning style? Prajeet, she's like, I don't think,
Brigitte Clements 12:39
no. I mean, as you know, Ayo, I'm out chatting to people all the time. I'm inherently curious, and so I go to a lot of talks. I meet with a lot of people. I learn best actually, through, you know, learning with people, but also podcasts. Yeah, I think I like to go into realms I don't know that much about. So I'm kind of always exploring the kind of other things outside of the built environment, because I'm kind of more high level, strategic level, systems level type of thinker, right? So I'd like to see how, you know, everything kind of fits together. So I find people who I find are magicians in their field, and very inspirational and very good. And I and I follow them, you know, specifically around politics or economics or social sciences, I think are also very, very interesting. But I also, I think also with my work, I'm, I have managed to carve out a kind of role where I get to interview a lot of people, and so I'm constantly learning in this way. But it's, it's, I mean, it's so dynamic, it's so interesting, right? So it's, there's just, it's endless. I mean, I was at future build this week, and it's, you know, yeah, every time. And I find it very interesting, because I think since, you know, Rosie and I've been in this field for 20 years, right? We're considered experts. And, you know, that's always kind of a bit of a shock, because you think, God, if I'm an expert, then I think we get to the point where we kind of, we at least know what questions to ask. So I think it's easier for us, maybe because we got to build on knowledge, and we know how to push and pull on things we're not so susceptible to kind of, I guess, green washing, but, but, yeah, I think it's quite tough when you're at the very, very beginning and you're trying to learn things. So I think in that way you need to, I would say you start on your specific thing that you're looking into, if it's, you know, retrofits. What is it that you're trying to achieve with this, and how do you connect into that? But I would also say, sorry, I'm going on a bit, but plug into networks. There's so people are really, really happy to talk. And I'm sorry, I'm going to do a plug here. But, for example, ay can which is a network. And it's not just architects, it's, you know, everyone from. Policy makers to educators to engineers to people marketing. And it's, it's an amazing dynamic network where people come to share ideas, ask questions, drive campaigns, you know, drop off, you know, some of their knowledge that they're not able to, I guess, exploit and take action on in their in their professional lives. And I think it's just a very empowering place where you place where you get to to kind of, you know, breathe out with other people. I think especially, I'm going to be a bit divisive here and say, you know, in this age of LinkedIn, I'm not a, you know, I'm on LinkedIn, but I don't really use it. I find it quite a insular, exclusionary place, right? It's really about the me and the compressive I am, and look at my certificates and my credentials, rather than a genuine collaborative space, right? Do you want to tell us a bit more about a can? Yeah, so, I mean, it's, it's a network under various themes, right? So you have everything from education to climate justice to natural materials to, you know, a circular economy. So if you're interested in any of these themes, you can get involved in them. But I think that we're kind of living in this era where we are supposed to present ourselves as experts, and we're expected to by ourselves, have this inherent knowledge that we just kind of expound, and that's unrealistic, but it's also very isolating, and we're not going to address the climate crisis alone behind our computers in our living rooms, right? It's not going to happen. So I think plugging into a network and making you know yourself more fluent with other people doing amazing things, it will naturally breathe in more information and knowledge into what you're doing. And you might not know everything, but you'll know actually where to go to. So that's how I learn,
Rosie Cade 16:49
yeah, and I really like the fact of, like, you know, kind of bringing different vibes into different spaces. So you you'll hear about a really amazing community project or amazing retrofit festival, for example, and it just sounds so rich and warm and positive. And then you walk into a finance room, and there's this expectation that everything's going to be very dry and very technical and very serious, and it's kind of like, Nah, it's all about vibes, this transition. I know that sounds we're humans, and you cannot get somebody excited about something. They'll pretend to be excited about it. They'll pretend to be on board, yeah, unless they're like, genuinely, I often ask this with marketing communication stuff like, if, if I read that, would I actually be interested and excited and delighted? And if I know then it's, I'm never going to remember it, and I'm never going to act on it. So I think we need to be a bit more authentic. More authentic.
Ayo Abbas 17:46
Hi, it's Ayo here, and I just wanted to interrupt the show quickly to say a bit more about what I do. I'm a digitally led marketing consultant, and I specialize in working with built environment firms just like yours. I think there's so much more that AEC firms can do to make the most of the digital marketing an opportunity. And if it's something that you would like to explore working with me how to make the best of online and in person world, then do get in touch. Email me at Ayo, which is ayo@abbasmarketing.com and let's have a chat.
Brigitte Clements 18:20
I did a systems change program that was kind of organized by the UKGBC, and with a now colleague, Emily Rose, we decided to kind of run with our theme, which was regenerative finance, because we're nerdy and we really get excited by this. So it's we don't have a finance or economics background we're just interested in we've just been ploughing through and presenting stuff. And we have architecture background, so we're quite good at presenting and organising things. So we've been invited to speak at a couple of finance things, and we're like, oh the caveat is that we are not experts, right? We're very clear about that. And what's happened is that a lot of finance people are not very good at presenting. They're pretty dry, and so we have inadvertently turned into, like, the punk of these talks and saying, like, look, we don't really know you need to investigate this, but these are all of our links. This is, I mean, we open source all of our knowledge anyway. But we kind of frame this, and people all sudden at the end, you know, you go for your canopies after, and people kind of beeline for us because we make finance exciting. But it's true. It's really, I mean, it's, it's, it's amazing, you know, this in this whole thing about vibe, Rosie, you're totally bang on. I mean, I find it very funny, but it's true, you need to be able to engage in a topic and a theme. And
Ayo Abbas 19:46
I guess, as well, for climate, what we need is like finance, we need to policy. These are all relatively dry topics, right? But it's like, how do you make it in a way that is accessible to people so they actually care and want to do something about it? I guess, isn't it?
Brigitte Clements 19:59
Yeah. But this is the fun part of your job, right? Like this. This is like, how do you I mean, you need to get a bit forensic about how you approach these things. And I think, you know, it's, it's, was it? Was it? Rory Stewart, in one of his podcasts, was saying that he really thinks that we need to become, you know, better orators. And it's true. Like as a society, we do need to be able to communicate better. But I think, you know, because we're talking about such big, broad things and then it, you know, our argument quite quickly gets undermined by some really, really small example that you can't really, you know, buffer in real time. But I think you need to sit there and figure out your story telling strategy. You know, it's, you know, we're when we look and project on the future. And, you know, this green transition quite often, it's an impossibility of it. It's really negative. It's, you know, it's going to cost too much. What's going to happen to XYZ? And you can look at historical evidence. And if you sit there and go look 10 years ago on the economist and ft and the reputable, you know, publications, they were saying that, you know, renewable, the transition to renewables is not going to happen because it's in affordable, and then you sit there and go, but the cost of PV has dropped by 85% and that's wind by half. I mean battery technology 80% and growing. I mean, it's burned off a whole new economy around it. So I think finding your way into to, you know, be able to explain, this is the exciting part of marketing. This
Rosie Cade 21:31
is the challenge, right? I think exactly, you've hit the nail on the head. We've got this big need, this big shift, but the way you're going to get there is a kind of like creating this ecosystem of people and solutions and taking all the steps together, but that's quite small and incremental and gets you into the weeds. So you've got to figure out a way of joining those together that's really compelling. I personally think we need to spend quite a lot more time working on the what we're talking about when we say we're going to go somewhere new and better, like the vision piece. I even hate using that word vision, because it's been so kind of co-opted and green wash. But what will it look like when we've solved this, because we're brilliant humans, and we've done put a man on the moon and all the rest of it, and we will solve this. But what's it going to be like what's it gonna feel like? What's gonna be like, yeah, what are the pluses going to be? Then there will be some minuses. I think we have to be realistic. It's all going to be totally rosy. But I feel like we haven't spent enough time painting the picture. And so, of course, you're asking people to take a step into the relative unknown, and the infrastructure perhaps isn't there yet for them to change their lives completely, like, without something really compelling, it's going to be difficult. Yeah.
Ayo Abbas 22:45
I mean, I always find that people don't really want to spend time, or, like, work figuring out the visions that the harder stuff of, like, what the real final outcome is of any activity. And I think that's one of the issues we have, is like, how do we say to people, this is valuable? Because people need something to work towards, which is basically what you're saying and to actually buy into, like,
Rosie Cade 23:04
who should be doing that? Is that something that should be on the garments plate to kind of tell that story or but skeptical about
Brigitte Clements 23:13
happening in multiple plural levels already, right? I mean, it's, I mean, I quite often slip out. I think what I like about my practice work is that I spend time with, you know, the builders and the contractors and the investors and the developers and the real estate agents and the, you know, insurance brokers and because they kind of bring me back to Earth that not everyone is working on the climate crisis, not everybody is fluent about it, because in my world, especially with a can and a lot of the kind of everyone is right, and the people that you know, hire me,to do these kind of strategy things are working on, you know, innovations that are mind blowing. I mean, we're talking, you know, hydrogen fuels for aviation, or, you know, new battery storage that's going to blow apart. You know what we have right now, really amazing innovations, right? And the fact is that people in government are doing it, people in industry are doing it, and private citizens are doing it. If we look at where we were 10 years ago to where we are now, it's astonishing. That's something we're not talking about. Is actually how quickly this transition is happening. And, you know, we look at things like, you know what's happening across the pond, you know. And you know, you know Mr. Trump, you know his stance on anything with anything I believe in. But you know, is it? Is it going to slow things down, especially over there? Yeah, it's a tragedy, but is it going to stop it now? And and I think what it might actually speed things up in other parts of the world, because people now have to take a stance and need to drive forward to what that means. And so I think it's, you know, asking, who's going to do? I think it's a moot point. I. Think we can only control what we do in who we're around. And I think it's really interesting to see how quickly domino's fall or flow when, people get engaged in this. I mean, I've just seen, I mean, ACAN has moved from, I think it was four or five people that met an Extinction Rebellion., protest in five years ago, and now it's 1000s and 1000s of people and 15 there's
Rosie Cade 25:31
definitely, there's definitely the kind of power in numbers creating a network. It's similar to the Don't Waste Buildings Network, which I love. And that started like organically, decided to build kind of, you know, without, like, going for funding or being sponsored or anything like this, but just like, by doing really good, interesting stuff and being right, and, yeah, I mean, we've got like, hundreds of members now, and we're engaging with policy. And it's a thing, it's a brand. It's got a LinkedIn platform. People are engaged with it, and it's starting to become a topic of conversation that's like, not weird or eco, it's just kind of normality and like the right thing to do, because we've got lots of different voices under the umbrella saying a similar thing. And you're
Ayo Abbas 26:13
doing tours to show people what's possible as well, aren't you? So come and see this building. Have a look around, you know, and all of that, which is amazing. Oh,
Rosie Cade 26:20
yeah, that's the other thing. I think people really love the like, always, I've always thought this. It's early days working with developers and builders, take them to site, show them stuff. People at King's Cross, we used to have hoarding, so we put, we punched, kind of little holes in them, so you could look through the construction site. People are just fascinated by the process, yeah,
Ayo Abbas 26:39
because people just don't understand what goes on on our construction site. And it's just that thing, when you open the world and open the doors to it, and people go, oh, so what? You can really retain this, and this how it's done. And, you know, you don't often know the state of a building until you crack it open, and all this kind of, you know, it's, it's amazing. Thanks
Ayo Abbas 27:01
so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes, which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abbas marketing.com and of course, if you like the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us see you soon you
