Ep 60: From ballerina to architecture marketing with Ellie Sharpe
Welcome to the new season of The Built Environment Marketing Show.
Today’s episode features Ellie Sharpe, the Marketing and Business Development Director at Perkins+Will. Ellie had an interesting start in architecture marketing as her previous career was as a professional ballerina.
In this episode, we talk about
Succession planning and acquisitions
The power of focusing on the human story and campaigns
How thought leadership and innovation are key parts of their marketing approach
Their approach to awards and the role they have played in boosting visibility
How they've re-adopted an 'old school' tool for presentations, pitches and collaboration
Resources and links
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is a podcast for architects, engineers and marketers who want to do better marketing make sure you check out our sizable back catolgue of interviews and solo episodes if you're facing a marketing challenge.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello, and welcome to today's episode of The Built Environment Marketing Show. It is my last interview of 2023, there will be a Christmas special that will come out in two weeks time. So look out for that though. I am your host, Ayo Abbas, a marketing consultant, content creator, speaker and trainer. And I run my own consultancy called Abbas Marketing, head to www.abbasmarketing.com to find out more about me and the work that I do. Anyway, today's episode, I actually went to somebody's office and did it in person with my own equipment. So apologies if the sound isn't completely there, but I am learning. So my guest is Ellie Sharpe, and she is the Business Development and Marketing Director at architectural firm Perkins&Will, it was a really, really interesting conversation, especially because I actually get Ellie to kind of talk about how she actually got into the industry, because it's not the usual kind of way. In our discussion, we also look at thought leadership, kind of how they run their campaigns in areas such as education, healthcare, and lifesciences. And we also touch on the fact and the importance of marketing ideation. We also look at tools, because I guess there's a thing about we've all got to use the right tools. But actually, if they're not workable or collaborative, are they actually the right tools. And we also look at some of the higher approach to awards this year of which they've won quite a few, and how you have to focus. So anyway, I will let you get on with listen to the show. Enjoy.
Ayo Abbas 01:37
Hi, Ellie, thanks for coming on to the show. So can you kick off and tell me a bit about I'm gonna say yourself first before we talk about Perkins&Will. yeah, and how you got into architecture marketing, because it's quite an interesting one.
Ellie Sharpe 01:51
Yeah
Ellie Sharpe 01:51
it's definitely not a linear journey, for sure. So my professional career started out as me being a professional ballerina, I moved to London when I was 15. Let's go straight off to my GCSEs found my world, my way into the world of ballet and was training with English National Ballet school for four years, and then graduated into their company and formed with them and various others all around Europe. But unfortunately, during that time, I had really a bad hip injury, and subsequently had to have several surgeries. And it got to the point where actually I was in so much pain, that the doctors were sort of saying he won't walk at 40 If you carry on, so I really had to sort of rethink my career. And I literally had no idea what I was going to do, you know, I'd throw my whole life at performing, being on stage being a dancer and suddenly I was sort of faced with thinking about what my alternative would be, I'd always have had a passion for architecture buildings, even though I didn't really know about it. And I went for a few job interviews with literally zero skills other than a sort of, I guess, semi qualification and word processing PowerPoint, and Excel, and went to a recruitment consultancy, who sort of pimped me around for a few jobs in admin. And luckily enough, I was invited to interview an amazing property developer, which is now called you and I, people recently bought by Landsec. probably shouldn't say bought by. I think we merged, which is great for them. And it kind of opened my eyes to realising a whole new sector that I'd never really considered, which was the wonderful world of real estate. Yeah. I said, I started there, as an admin assistant, essentially a receptionist and although a lonely job, in some respects, it was actually a wonderful experience to see greet and meet people who are consistently coming through the door of perhaps one of the most pioneering property developers of our generation, I would say, the business itself was led by two, three incredible people, namely Martin Evans, and Richard Upton, who both have been incredible inspirations to me on my journey throughout my progress into I guess, architecture, marketing. And I had a really crazy time there where I actually ended up going back to ballet for a period of time, because I was given the opportunity to do a sort of Swan Song performance. And I remember them saying, Oh, you will come back, though, won't you? And I was sort of thinking God, if I were them, I would have just been saying "you've been here for three months, you're off back to ballet, Clearly, you're not interested in this and we're not investing in you", but they really did. And when I came back, it was sort of three months back doing the receptionist role, and then Martin said I think it'd be great if you could come and work with me and the sort of marketing communications team. And I learned everything I know from him. So if he's listening, that's the good, the bad and the ugly, that's about myself, not about him. And it was really just a process of being embedded in a company that I felt completely passionate about with felt inspired every day by the leaders and their ambition and vision. And I guess that sort of propelled me and I, I grew up the tree from there. And I had this sort of epiphany. And one point thinking, you know, is marketing exactly what I want to do? I had a real passion for interior design. I went, I did several courses at UAL in the evenings. But then spoke to a few people who said, doing the interior design role as a full time job isn't exactly what you think, why don't you take your knowledge of the client side working for a developer in their marketing communications team, and transfer that over into architecture? And help architects realise the opportunities that they have with clients across brand, messaging, purpose, vision, etc? And that's ultimately how I found myself here. Fantastic.
Ayo Abbas 06:17
So in terms of your role now at Perkins&Will, how did you, I guess, what's, what's your role? And what, and what's your team, how you set up?
Ellie Sharpe 06:26
So I actually joined Perkins&Will, almost two years ago, as Strategic Partnerships, Director, again, probably one of those job titles that people are going What does that mean? But ultimately, it was to look at how strategy and work winning and partnerships with clients could really deliver on the ambitions that we had here in our London and Dublin studios. And about a year ago, our team sort of needed more leadership in the sense that it was a very flat line structure, which has many, many benefits, but all reporting into the MD, who didn't, at the time, really have the capacity to sort of nurture and give the team what they needed in terms of growth and vision. So I was very fortunate to have sort of get the opportunity to then lead our team. So the team has eight strong at the moment. We cover everything from bids and work winning, to business development and strategy and communications and PR, which is sort of wrapped under the marketing bubble of Perkins&Will.
Ayo Abbas 06:42
And is that global. Wow. That's huge. Not huge for I mean, for the size of like, your practices, what?
Ellie Sharpe 07:39
sorry I didn't undersand what you meant, as in that sort of global structure? Yeah. Our remit is in the air essentially. Oh, okay. Apologies. We have a London studio and a Dublin studio. We have Schmidt hammer Lassen architects who are based out in Denmark. Yeah. But ultimately, our region encompasses Europe, Middle East.
Ayo Abbas 07:57
Oh, okay. Cool.
Ellie Sharpe 07:58
So yeah, a little smaller.
Ayo Abbas 07:59
I was gonna say,
Ellie Sharpe 08:01
not minature, either.
Ayo Abbas 08:03
No, no, no, it's good. It's a good size team. It's good. So in terms of, I guess, what's your approach to marketing overall? What kinds of things do you tend to major on? Do?
Ellie Sharpe 08:13
Well, I think my real passion when it comes to marketing are very much thought leadership and innovation, I think you can really grow your practices profile, and the excitement and engagement that it has within the market by really being pioneering. I think, you know, projects are great delivering work is the proof within the pudding, as they say, but I guess for me, it's all about ideation, and setting new strategies, I guess, in terms of the way we're trying to push our influence on real estate as designers, and I think we really have an important role to play there. And I think there is a tendency now with buzzwords, like sustainability, which
Ayo Abbas 08:56
ESG bucks come back again, right? Yeah,
Ellie Sharpe 08:58
human capital, social purpose, meanwhile use, all these things exist. But I think for me, it's very much about sort of saying, actually, what is our role? And how can we push for better? So my real passion within marketing is, is that that can't just do thought leadership alone. There has to be.
Ayo Abbas 09:19
And so when you're kind of approaching that, when you're approaching the thought leadership, how do you kind of do that? What's your kind of process? And how do you get the ideas? Is it you guys? Or is it more you brainstorm with the team or
Ellie Sharpe 09:31
I think it stems from us, in the sense that we as, as a marketing team, we were just chatting about this earlier, I really do see us as the sort of nucleus of the studio here we touch all sides, you know, everything from our corporate interiors team all the way through to urban design through to Portland, who are an incredible placemaking and branding agency that are in house with us. And I think for me, it's we're at the sort of centre of my Many of the conversations that happen here, and we're pulling out and teasing out and speaking to clients and hearing the industry and actually really seeing what some of the big challenges are and I think for us, that gives us a great platform to be able to sort of propose really relevant, and I guess well received conversations that hopefully is sort of going to help us move the dial.
Ayo Abbas 10:21
I think that's the thing. You're absolutely right. I think especially when you're a marketeer, when even when you started from a relatively junior level, you are having senior access, and go into meetings, and you've right touching all parts of the practice, aren't you and you end up knowing about the finance, how it works. The legal side, which way scares me. I'm always like, Oh, my God, I realised, oh, my god, like using board meetings. But I do think areas, that thing that we do see so much, and I think we've got so much. And we have a different perspective, which I think is one of those things where we sort of come in and it's like, actually, have you considered it this way? Or, for me, I quite often don't understand why things are done in certain ways, why?
Ellie Sharpe 11:00
Asking questions. I think someone said to me once, if you ask more questions, you get more answers. Yeah. And that's certainly how I like our team to operate. I always say, you know, no one's gonna die. You've got to keep pushing, keep making change and being ambitious. And I think, you know, that whole essence of forgiveness, rather than permission is sort of the ethos that I'm trying to
Ayo Abbas 11:22
definitely, I think, yeah, I think you do need to do that. And just making sure that you're asking people and just Yeah, being curious, I think is the key thing. So in terms of kind of recent campaigns, you've done, what's, what's your kind of what you've been doing this year, campaign wise.
Ellie Sharpe 11:38
well, teaser, we are about to launch a new campaign at the end of January, which is actually looking at the sort of role of place within the talent, race of lifesciences, something we've been hearing a lot from our clients is, we need to get the people in. We hear that across the board, you know, when we're working on an incredible interiors fit out project for the likes of Netflix or Arup for others, you know, this is a huge investment for people in terms of workplace and getting people back into the office. But I think for Life Sciences, clients, you know, they're really looking at how they can set the bar and an increasingly small pool of talent, how their commercial buildings can actually play a part in their sort of hiring and talent retention race. So I'm really excited for that. And we've managed to interview a lot of really, really successful, and I guess, eminent figures in that industry and across our industry, too. So it's lovely to sort of hear all of the voices come together. And hopefully, that's going to be a really robust launch in January. So that's what I'm really excited about.
Ayo Abbas 12:43
that's sounds really fun. And also I think stuff like the Francis Crick coming to like King's Cross, isn't it? They've that's created a whole kind of area and science hub there, isn't it? And the whole thing about bringing scientists within cities, rather than being on like, in the middle of nowhere, which is, which is what used to be.
Ellie Sharpe 12:59
Absolutely. So I've actually been working with Jack Sallabank of Future Places Studio on this report. And he was actually one of the first pioneers of identifying that sort of area as a knowledge cluster, which was amazing. I think it must have been at least five years ago that we were doing a launch down at British Land's campus over at Euston Road, but it is amazing to sort of see how it's developed. And we've got a number of projects on at the moment you know, working across Tribeca, which is lifesciences piece was doing Oriele which is sort of combination of UCL and Moorfields Eye Hospital into one combined campus, where learning and research all come together all the way through to doing the KGX1 project, which is giant land scraper for a big tech client, which everybody knows, but I'm not allowed to talk about.
Ayo Abbas 13:48
the size of the shard on its side. running track on top,
Ellie Sharpe 13:55
and a swimming pool, crazy! And all the way through to Portland, who I mentioned earlier, you know doing an incredible new signage and wayfinding piece around cold drops. So I think you know, our touch points in that sector of London are definitely visible. And it's exciting to sort of see how
Ayo Abbas 14:12
it's funny because I'm, I originally worked at Arup, a very long time ago. And so yeah, some of the stuff I was worked with the King's Cross team I worked with, I worked on the bid for the Francis Crick originally, that's like 2009. So like so mad stuff like that. So yeah, Kings Cross is actually one of those areas where it's like, I know what's happening there, well I did for a long time.
Ellie Sharpe 14:33
Well, I actually moved to King's Cross or just the periphery of King's Cross to live a few years ago and even just in the last three years to see it evolve is absolutely amazing. So yes, definitely plays close to my heart.
Ayo Abbas 14:45
Oh, it's lovely. It's lovely. Love it. And in terms of I guess, your brand and the Perkins&Will brand how's that evolved over the years and what kind of had you have you had to do to kind of shape that and take that forward because it has evolved quite a lot, hasn't it? And it's still evolving
Ellie Sharpe 14:59
and it is still evolving? Absolutely. So, Perkins&Will, I mean, came to the UK many, many years ago. And their sort of process of growth here has been through acquisition, starting with Pringle Brandon and more recently with Penoyre & Prasad. And with Portland, as I mentioned, and I think the challenges when you're bringing in multiple cultures is obviously fantastic, because there's a multitude of viewpoints and new ideas and projects and portfolios to build upon. But I think it's really been establishing Perkins&Will in a variety of sectors to really have a hard hitting, I guess, brand purpose of who we are, what we stand for, and what we want to be known for. I think it's actually one of our, I guess, selling points in a way that we deliver projects end to end all the way, you know, from urban planning at the very sort of ideation of a strategic piece of land, all the way through to fitting out an incredible workplace for the likes of the tech giants. So I think to sort of have that enter NPS is where we're really driving our brand narrative in terms of adding value to clients. I think, you know, the brand has a huge footprint in the corporate fit out market. And we are growing quite heavily in health care, science and tech, higher education and urban design, too. So it's definitely an area of growth for us. We recently moved to our new HQ at 150 Holborn, which is a landmark project for us right in the heart of London. So I think that's definitely putting us on the map to and several new big projects sort of coming to fruition. So I think it's been a sort of a journey of growth, even in the two years that I've been here. If people when they said, oh, so where are you going to? And I said Perkins&Will, and sort of scratching their heads. But actually now It certainly seems, particularly through many award winners this year, particularly at the BCO, etc. and AJ. You know, we do everything from small, I guess, really thoughtful and sensitive projects like Grenfell nursery, which is the sort of first piece of rebuilding that community, all the way through to, as I mentioned earlier, huge commercial big range,
Ayo Abbas 17:12
I guess, like, how did we around for the kind of transition in terms of what how, like, if you've got legacy brands in a way, which are strong brands, haven't you? And that whole thing of, I guess, in some ways, bringing in a new brand into the mix? I mean, how hard is that been? That's quite
Ellie Sharpe 17:26
Yeah, I mean, it's, um, I think I cut my teeth when I was at You and I, which was actually the sort of merger of Development Securities and Cathedral Group. So that was a real opportunity to bring a whole new brand into the market of two merging businesses, which I think was highly successful, and definitely has made a mark on the sort of London and UK real estate market, I think here, you know, Penoyre & Prasad are absolutely, they have history, they have incredible leaders, and we still got incredible leaders that are with us, and an incredible portfolio of projects
Ayo Abbas 18:00
across a wide range of sectors,
Ellie Sharpe 18:01
particularly healthcare and education concern, which was sort of I think, the I wasn't here at the beginning of the acquisition, or the sort of strategy around it, but my understanding to really bolster that side of our business. And their name stayed with us for three years. And then it was only at the beginning of this year that we sort of integrated them in because we were ultimately one brand at that point,
Ayo Abbas 18:23
when you've been building it, right. Yeah,
Ellie Sharpe 18:24
exactly. And I think that's always hard. You know, people have attachments to names and brands and businesses that they've built from the ground up. And I think there's always a sort of, I think there was a horrendous sort of AJ title saying, you know, giant swallows small boutique practice, but it's really not that it's definitely about just sort of emphasising the areas that we want to grow and not losing any of the charm and impact that they had had on that. An
Ayo Abbas 18:54
also, you want to keep the people so you want to you want you thinking? I mean, ultimately, that's what it's about, isn't it? It's just, yeah, I can imagine it's just there are quite a few brands where you go, you know, you're looking at as that transition, and how fast do you do it? And actually, there's a couple of firms I'm going to interview next year talking about, you know, they've been brought up by large US firms. So it's gonna be interesting to have that discussion. And they're at different stages.
Ellie Sharpe 19:16
I think it's an interesting point, because, you know, you look at architecture practices that are sort of coming to the point where perhaps the name directors over the door looking to retire. And really, if there's no obvious succession plan within those businesses, they kind of have two choices, either to look at an acquisition, or look at an E ot model. And I think, you know, more and more practices are sort of struggling with which is the best option for them. And I know that acquisition is a really challenging piece when it comes to brand and wants to keep that legacy. But I would say here, it's very much about maintaining that and the profile and the people.
Ayo Abbas 19:58
Hi, Ayo here? And as you're a listener to the show, I just wanted to tell you a bit more about how I can help you get your built environment marketing done. If you're looking to set up a company podcasts are trying to figure out what content you want to create for an amazing campaign that really engages your audience. Or even if you want to get your business more up to speed in terms of how they approach digital marketing, and how you get kind of senior level people on board with workshops and training, then do bear me in mind, I'm actually a marketing consultant, content creator and trainer. But I work specifically with built environment firms, just like yours. So I know the best practices and approaches, but also most importantly, how to apply them to our sector. You can find out more about my work at www.abbasmarketing.com. Or feel free to email me at Ayo, which is Ayo@abbasmarketing.com. There's also links in the show notes, too. Thanks for listening. And now back to the show.
Ayo Abbas 20:56
I guess in terms of marketing channels, what's been working well, for you in 2023?
Ellie Sharpe 21:00
I did see the question on your list, thinking god are we highly? You know, we're not innovating enough? Maybe? Maybe that's something I need to look at.
Ayo Abbas 21:11
I will see on TikTok next.
Ellie Sharpe 21:13
Well, they are actually a client of ours. I think there's been some questions recently about how Tiktoks used, particularly in the US in terms of sort of, is it a channel for communications? Or is it a channel for sort of MI6 activity? I think we're a bit limited at the moment on that front. But I would say, you know, obviously, I think we've grown our social media presence. And that's definitely had an impact, particularly on sort of, you know, garnering interest from new talent coming out of education. And I think, you know, people aren't necessarily looking on websites anymore. They're looking on Instagram, they want to see the real story, who the people are, what we're profiling, not just a tonne of projects. And I think that's a big shift, you know, in terms of the way if people want to work for purpose driven brands, don't they? So that's the sort of lens in one of the things we've been using quite a lot more recently for actually pitches. And I guess B2B conversations, instead of just clicking through a slide deck, and let's face it, architects literally can't wait to put 150 projects into a presentation and talk about each of them in detail as
Ayo Abbas 22:17
everyone else falls asleep, right? Yeah.
Ellie Sharpe 22:20
We've been looking at using Miro board. Oh, yeah, great way to sort of, you know, have a conversation that isn't linear. So you know, allowing the conversation in the room to flow organically. And then arming ourselves with a plethora of fantastic either projects or thought leadership pieces, or insights, awards, etc. To be able to sort of jump around the conversation in a far more organic fashion, which is really, really good.
Ayo Abbas 22:45
Were you ever around them? Prezi was around.
Ellie Sharpe 22:47
I wasn't
Ayo Abbas 22:47
Oh, no, it was just it was basically a tool where again, it was a bit like prezi, like a bit a bit like Miro, but it was like people, you could basically have lots of different ideas and scattered around the board. But like, some people would just do it too fast. And it would just like make you quite sick, visually. But no, I know exactly what you mean a Miro. I think it was a brilliant idea. And just a different, but you didn't you've got lots of I guess lots of different chapters and lots of different areas you can take people through, isn't it?
Ellie Sharpe 23:13
Absolutely. Another thing that I think, particularly some of our designers, and definitely some of the wonderful people in my bid team who love to work in InDesign have really struggled with this year as we've slightly moved away when it comes to presentations back to PowerPoint. Terrifying. And actually, the reason why we have is not necessarily for the design capability of the software, let's be honest, but just the fact that from a collaborative perspective, it's easy to have many people in the document at the same time working on it together, less exporting less sharing the file. And I think there's definitely benefits to that. But just a plea to Microsoft, if you could get it up to the scratch of InDesign from a design software perspective, but with all of the sharing elements that would be really great,
Ayo Abbas 23:59
Do you look to Canva?
Ellie Sharpe 24:00
Yes. We actually work a lot in Canva
Ayo Abbas 24:02
socials and stuff. Yeah, I guess it's not it's not quite as good as it hasn't got the functionality. It doesn't. That's the thing, isn't it? You can't do quite as much. But you can do some amazing presentations on that.
Ellie Sharpe 24:11
Oh, yeah, you really can. And it's got a template for absolutely everything which is unbelievable and a great starter for 10. So we definitely do use Canva quite a lot. And it's definitely growing in terms of I
Ayo Abbas 24:22
I think InDesign is just cumbersome, isn't it?
Ellie Sharpe 24:24
It's gotten to that point,
Ayo Abbas 24:25
because your image files are like, and it's like, everything is so slow, and it's like it's expensive.
Ellie Sharpe 24:30
It is exceedingly expensive. We've actually moved to sort of, you know, a licenced checkout policy. We don't give everybody licences for the entire week. It's when they need them. But I think you know, it wasn't even necessarily designed to be, let's face it, the architects portfolio software it was it it was designed for, you know, making magazines and books, and we've almost had to sort of reinvent it. But yeah, I guess it's not really pioneering marketing tool is it when you're saying we're moving back to PowerPoint I think it's quite interesting.
Ayo Abbas 25:01
That's it.
Ellie Sharpe 25:03
Maybe interview me again next year,
Ayo Abbas 25:05
we're on PowerPoint I'm like. But you know what, though, I think it's finding the tools that work for your practice. And I think that's the thing. It's much more about just looking at it and going is this actually working? Indesign looks great, but no one can do anything to it.
Ellie Sharpe 25:22
Exactly. So I think it's finding the right tools that work for you. And I think, you know, being able to get your full team collaborating, and on board is sort of the key now. It's beyond beauty. It's actually about collaboration
Ayo Abbas 25:34
and getting getting those ideas out. And it makes perfect sense. So that's the channel, PowerPoint. And we touch briefly on awards. So how do you tackle awards? Because some of them are a beast, as I'm trying to do a bscale award.
Ellie Sharpe 25:47
We are in the process of completing for BCO awards this year, which is yeah, definitely my team saying was they shouldn't be upstairs on the floor. Yeah, many, many occasions. I think something we need to bring in more is a bit of a no go no go strategy on awards, I think I had a grand vision for 2023, where I was going to plot all of the awards out on a calendar and have them all agreed six months in advance. But let's face it, it's never ever going like that. No, but I do think sort of having a strategy and a foresight of which projects and beyond projects, you know, thought leadership and, and innovation and ideas. What you can be sort of putting in that's actually diversifying your awards content is really, really good. The one thing I would say about awards, nothing is wasted, because all of that work you're doing is going to be used somewhere. So it's really great to do a big deep dive. I've been we've been really successful on awards. This year, we won practice of the year and Mixology awards, we won the Innovation Award at the BCO national awards, and the EG award at the regional finals. Our Irish Studio also just won practice of the year and the fitout awards. So you went didn't you? I did. Real scam. I'm not over in Dublin, although, you know, definitely lots of my time is spent, you know, looking at their strategies, but it's, it's certainly been a really successful year for us. I can't take any credit myself. It's definitely the team, the comms team and and our project teams as well. But I would say definitely, the biggest strategy for me is looking at how we can garner all the information we can on a project that's going to be there when we need it for something as intensive as the BCO Awards. Because, gosh, when you don't have that information, having to ask consultants to find it .
Ayo Abbas 27:32
And the cost information they're asking for is huge. Yeah, it's just like, Okay, it's not. I think that's the thing is that you and I think that go no go is really important. Because I've been sitting there going right? Do we have the capacity for somebody to be on this for like, a week? And the people who need to be involved in it? Or do they have the time as well? Absolutely. I think that's the issue, isn't it?
Ellie Sharpe 27:52
And I think it's also, you know, what does that take them away from? Yeah, I think it's, you know, beyond whether they even have the time, you know, it's prioritisation. And I think we had a point a couple of years ago, where one of our projects was doing so well and awards that it was almost just like, this snowball effect of oh, we've got to enter it for more and more and more. And actually, it gets to a point where you dilute the impact of you know, those award wins if you've got 10 trophies in the cabinet for the same thing is actually how can we sort of diversify what we're putting in and making sure that the awards are exactly what the project needs?
Ellie Sharpe 28:26
My record was 18
Ellie Sharpe 28:30
Crikey!.
Ayo Abbas 28:38
When it was, it was it was actually combined, though, it was like with a wider project team. So it wasn't so it was when I was working on new street, Mace, but like, the wider project team, as well, but over but it was over a number of years. Wow. Yeah. I mean, he got to the stage though, that we've done so much stuff on it that like, like, when it came to the final, like BCIA award, I had everything you could ever think of
Ellie Sharpe 29:03
how great though you know, you're sort of bid work when you needed to put in a project, we
Ayo Abbas 29:09
literally had every innovation every like we had it.
Ellie Sharpe 29:12
So you know, it's never wasted, as I said, and actually what's really interesting is that we recently won two tests of time awards on the trot with Architects today. And it's actually lovely to also be able to revisit and go back and look at how your projects have literally stood the test of time. So and also from you know, ESG and sustainability sort of credentials package, looking at how we were actually thinking about that way before everybody else.
Ayo Abbas 29:37
Yeah, and I think that's especially on the whole kind of architecture today doing these more kinds of awards that are not looking at the glitzy and also those times, they've changed the structural engineering awards as well. Their basically like, you know, they're looking at the green first. Fantastic, and so it's not about trying your new it's actually the you know, they put their you know, their criteria and everything is all geared towards what ratings has doing actually. And that's what that's what's driving every award, which I think it's great. So it's nice to see that because I know when I've done research on my ESG stuff, you kind of sit there and you're like, actually, when you people aren't always they don't go back and check on my work. Yeah, to see how it's performing. I think that's the issue.
Ellie Sharpe 29:38
I think, you know, the sort of rise and smart the rise in sort of looking at how with certain sustainability criteria, you need to be reporting annually on how you're, you know, that sort of operational Yes, you know, I think we that is becoming more native and the sort of way we work. So I'm hoping that that will be encouraged more, we've just got to ask the clients to make sure they're doing those posts occupancy, because
Ayo Abbas 30:42
that's the bit, isn't it? That's the missing piece. I know. And I've done some stuff, and you will have WSP and we've sort of sat there and, you know, they're like, one of the big issues is that it's like, we don't go back in and check
Ellie Sharpe 30:52
Absolutely. And I think also asking your clients to, you know, involve you in that post occupancy, because half the time is fine, oh, they are doing a POE, but they've gone to somebody else, and then you don't have that continuity of information. And I think that for us is really, really crucial. So hopefully more of that in 2024.
Ayo Abbas 31:12
So we're all going to be targeting definitely. Okay, so two final questions. So first one is, how do you define success in marketing?
Ellie Sharpe 31:23
Oh, gosh, I think the list is endless. But in marketing, it's definitely making sure that my team are feeling engaged as ambassadors of our studio, I think, you know, people don't realise just how influential the content we produce and the, you know, presentations we put together, or the thought leadership that has a gigantic impact on our profile and our visibility within the market. So success, for me would definitely look like what hopefully does at the moment, looking at them being, you know, really engaged and up to speed with the way we operate, understanding all of our sort of key values. And I guess the sort of vision that we have for 2024 and beyond, I think it would also be recognition of the rest of the studio in the marketing team and sort of the value that we bring, I think it's always difficult, you know, being an overhead and a business and having to constantly, you know, look at how your work is performing in terms of an ROI sense. But I think if we all went on a two week holiday, that might just be the test that they need to recognise. We're really fortunate, I mean, are relatively new MD, Jo, she joined us in January, also, from Arup. She, she's been an incredible sort of pioneer.
Ayo Abbas 32:50
used to be the architecture side.
Ellie Sharpe 32:52
Yes, exactly. You know, she has been incredible at supporting me and the team in terms of, you know, having more focus and, and I guess, taking the time that we do have to make a bigger impact. The greatest sort of analogy she gave me recently, she said, your To Do lists, essentially a stack of pebbles, find the biggest pebble and drop it in, and that will have the biggest ripple. And those are the things you need to focus on. So I think also, for me successful definitely look like us making bigger waves.
Ayo Abbas 33:20
I think it is his focus, isn't it? Because it's like, you can't do everything? Yeah, exactly. He's gonna really change the change to change the wheel. Okay, so your final question. So, crystal ball 2024. What do you think is the biggest challenge facing marketers like you and I?
Ellie Sharpe 33:41
I think it's, I think people have cottoned on to that sort of marketing, narrative marketing speak, in the way that they talk about projects and businesses, which is actually sort of diluting the impacts that we as marketers can have, in terms of, you know, if everyone's saying the same things, we're gonna have to constantly be innovating and the way we talk about our businesses and finding new dictionary terms
Ellie Sharpe 34:09
for new ways to say the same thing basically.
Ellie Sharpe 34:12
always think that is a challenge. And you know, ChatGPT is certainly not going to help us in that respect. I think the other challenge we've got is, you know, the big our recession word is sort of on everyone's lips at the moment. And I think, fortunately for us, we're not seeing any slowdown in the market, but there's always the anxiety that that happens. And I think, you know, making sure that you know, marketing is highly regarded in the sense of, you know, no cost cutting exercises should impact that. And actually, when the chips are down, you've got to be investing in marketing. That's where the value really lies. So I think it's hoping that businesses see that. I feel very fortunate to work for one that does, but I know for many marketers, there's always an anxiety that when those sort of, you know, cost cutting exercises come there's there's an anxiety around how much resourcing an opportunity you're given at those moments in time. So those would be my two biggest challenges. I'm sure there's many, many those sprang to mind.
Ayo Abbas 35:10
Actually, you know what I'm gonna ask a bonus question, does it have to be more positive as I was just thinking like, so what? So what kind of tip? Like what tip would you give to a marketer and to do next year?
Ellie Sharpe 35:21
What tip would I do? Great question. I think it's probably a tip for myself. And you've touched on it, which is very much to say, Look, you have a finite amount of time. And of course, we could all work all the hours in the week to deliver as much as we could, but it's to have more focus, and really understand exactly how your role is going to make a difference in your organisation. Get yourself some wonderful champions to help you get there. And don't be afraid to say no,
Ellie Sharpe 35:48
brilliant, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Ellie Sharpe 35:50
Thank you so much.
Ayo Abbas 35:58
Thanks so much for listening to the built environment marketing show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on abbasmarketing.com. And of course, if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you
