Ep 53: Growing an architectural firm with Andy Matthews, Roach Matthews
Today’s episode is with Andy Matthews who is a co-founder of an architectural practice called Roach Matthews.
A practice founded 2 years ago with a growing profile and track record.
I first met Andy a few years back when his practice was starting out and he was a panelist on one of our Build Up networking events on new practices. He was impressive then, particularly in the strategic way that he approached marketing and BD.
It was great to catch up now to see how his practice has evolved over the past two years and what systems and processes he’s looking to get in place.
Resources and links
Find out more about Ayo here
Check out Andy Matthews
BuildUp talk with Andy Matthews - Homing In Packing a Punch webinar about small practices
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of The Built environment Marketing Show, hosted by me Ayo Abbas, Abbas Marketing. Today, my guest is the amazing Andy Matthews who is the co founder of an architectural firm called Roach Matthews. I first met Andy a few years back when his practice was starting out, and he was a panellist on one of our Build Up networking events. He was really impressive, particularly in the kind of strategic way that he approached marketing and BD, even as a small firm just starting out, and it's something they've carried through, which is great to hear. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. So you can watch it as well. It's a really useful kind of episode to kind of catch up on. Anyway, back to the day. It was great to catch up with Andy just to see how his practice has evolved over the past two years, and what systems and processes he's got in place now. I'll stop talking so you can get on with listening. Enjoy the episode. Bye.
Ayo Abbas 01:05
Hi, Andy,
Ayo Abbas 01:05
thanks so much for coming onto the show. Can you introduce yourself and your role at Roach Matthews?
Andy Matthews 01:10
Thanks for having me and Yes, I'm Andy. I'm one half of Roach Matthews. And we're a small studio founded around two years ago. And we're now a team of five, which is great. We've grown since last April, in response in the work we've been doing. So we're currently working on extensions, refurbishments to private homes, workspaces, community spaces, router, fitouts, and lots of other interesting things.
Ayo Abbas 01:38
And you're an architectural practice, right?
Andy Matthews 01:40
We are yes, yeah. We also work a four-day a week for no loss and pay. And we're working towards our B-Corp certification. So we're trying to do things differently.
Ayo Abbas 01:50
Okay, well, actually, my first thing is, so how come you decided to do things differently?
Andy Matthews 01:55
Oh, that's a good question. I think, Well, we both have had experience in the industry and working for quite a long time in there. And I've actually been thinking about a presentation to do with a four-day week recently. And one of the things I don't know if you're a Kubrick fan, but in Space Odyssey 2001, it's almost like the the idea of architectural practice, is kind of, you know, the monkey bashing the tool against the rock. But the, you know, the way that we practice our architecture is on spaceships flying around arguing with computers. So, you know, it feels like there's a disjoint between these two things where, you know, our work, and you're incredibly progressive in what we do. And I guess we're on a mission to try and improve the other bit, the actual machinery behind the scene.
Ayo Abbas 02:42
But that's amazing values. And I guess it shows what your ethos is like, isn't it? So? It makes you stand out? Doesn't it? I mean, does that help you in your marketing having been so open about your values and what you believe?
Andy Matthews 02:54
I think so. Yeah, I mean, we started with this very loose idea of good things for good people. So the idea being that you want to work with people who want to work with you, and you shouldn't waste your energy on those who kind of fight you and so on, you know that that's not a naive kind of way of thinking. But ultimately, there's there's clients who, who appreciate and, and value your values, and very much want to work with you and when those aligned, and that's a good working relationships. So I think to come back to your point, when you start a practice, you don't really have much to show. So, you know, we're only just starting to publish our first built projects. There's some other little bits and bobs that are come. But it takes time for that. So there's there's a bit of a marketing void there, isn't there? I think so. So what do you do? Well, you can talk about the process, you can talk about your values, you can talk about your people. And then that becomes a bit more of a blend as you go forward.
Ayo Abbas 03:44
And you can talk about cycling, which is something that I know you do a lot. Yes. But cycling is huge. And the kind of work in the industry, isn't it? There was a whole kind of group communities
Andy Matthews 03:58
and you got off in a way but yeah I mean to touch on that point, we did at one point, have all where 75% of our leads came from cycling. So we track all those things. But I think there's something quite interesting about cycling in that, you know, all these networking events where we've been to and we stand awkwardly with a Peroni gazing into each other's eyes. Hopefully.
Ayo Abbas 04:19
Everything back, yeah,
Andy Matthews 04:20
absolutely. Yeah. But I think the thing that's quite nice about cycling is that you don't have that direct visual eye contact, you cycle next to each other. You know, you go on a bit of a journey together and and actually, most of the camaraderie and the kind of friendships that are built there then can turn into work relationships afterwards. It's just another means of finding people who you get on with really,
Ayo Abbas 04:45
it's a much nicer way of networking is interesting because the other week I went to women in construction event and it wasn't about drinking like it normally is. It was literally we had afternoon tea. So it's like a room full of women just having great conversations, you know, over five tables and It was just really nice. And it wasn't about booze. It was, you know, it was sat down at Fortnum and Masons. It was beautiful. Not just afternoon tea, it was gorgeous. So yeah, it was probably sat down with amazing cakes, I'll show you pictures. Why didn't it was a different it had a different energy, do what you'd normally go to, and you felt really comfortable
Andy Matthews 05:25
that's good. I think there's so many awkward events, I think not understanding what networking is, when you start out is quite, quite interesting. You kind of always look for the clients, but actually, it's just about talking to people. And yeah, it's quite hard to track that return. But you just more people you talk to and the more people you engage with, you know, the better it is. But yeah, the cold, the cold conversations are the hardest.
Ayo Abbas 05:46
Yeah, they are definitely the hardest, the hardest to kind of get you from A to B in terms of working relationship, because you're starting from so far away. And I think any kind of things you can do to fast track that and make your make make both sides feel more comfortable is better. So actually going back to say two years ago, when you were starting out, how did you win those first projects? What did you do?
Andy Matthews 06:06
Well, we
Andy Matthews 06:06
stopped saying no. So you know, we turned down lots of opportunities over the years. And we simply stopped saying no is part one of the process. And then, you know, we're both very busy with work. I was also doing architectural photography part time, so very little capacity to do that outside of it. But I think most importantly, telling people that you want work and actually dropping into every conversation, hey, we've set up a practice, you know, and, and the more you do that, and the more confident you feel about this, not like hey, I want some work from you. But it's just, hey, you know, we're looking for some work, you know, and actually being quite specific about it, I think really helps actually,
Ayo Abbas 06:48
you specify the types of work, or did you was it literally Hi, we were looking for some work? Do you know when you aren't? Or was it more like we're looking for this type? I'd love to say
Andy Matthews 06:56
that we were very driven. And I had a really clear elevator pitch about it. Afraid I can't, I think it was more just we set up a practice, we're looking for stuff. And then it turns into a conversation rather than a kind of one way, one way bubble, perhaps. But people are quite receptive to that. And then what we found is that people became almost ambassadors for us, and would then go on and ask their network to kind of, you know, then send opportunities through to us that way. So
Ayo Abbas 07:24
I guess you think that was kind of it? I guess you've planted the seed? Haven't you've planted the seed in their head? Actually, when someone does come up? They are Oh, actually, I do know someone who's doing that. And they'll be great. Exactly. Yeah. So I think I think there's a bit of an assumption,
Andy Matthews 07:35
you're too busy to do stuff sometimes. Yeah. So what it means. So if you don't say that you're actually looking for work, and I think people can assume from your social media presence are these guys got so much stuff going on that? You know, they can't possibly take anything more, but you know, that might not be the case?
Ayo Abbas 07:50
Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a good point. And was there anything else you didn't? I'm just starting out. So you kind of did the word of mouth, we're here we're taking on work. We're not saying no, come to us. Anything else that really kind of helped you to get going?
Andy Matthews 08:03
I think it's just I mean, it's just going and talking to people. There's there's no secret about it. But I think it's just personal relationships, going to talk to people showing them PDF portfolio, coffees, breakfast, lunches, dinners, whatever, just any way of kind of engaging with people, or organising bike rides, or any way of just kind of talking to people about what we did, or doing or hope to do really. You know, I could say it was really strategic. But unfortunately, I think it's just, I mean, you're forming your ideas and your values as you go on. Absolutely. I think you're learning as you go.
Ayo Abbas 08:40
And also, I think, you know, like saying stuff out loud, that really does start to solidify, I think it's, you know, we hear your own words, it's like, is that true? Do I believe this? And it starts to evolve as well, doesn't it? And also you get more comfortable in certain things. So I think you're right, it's saying out loud, this is a real thing, you know? And how did you find having to do the marketing and BD bit? Was it something you're comfortable with? Or did you find it a bit alien to you? Or,
Andy Matthews 09:06
I mean, I find it okay. And, you know, I guess I find it easier, but it's still hard, it still has moments of awkwardness and, and promoting oneself. And being so direct about that kind of can be a bit tricky. But you know, you work through those issues. I've had a business coach or professional mentor, to help me kind of get a bit more comfortable with that. And, and actually, it's, it's, we also some really good advice from Martin a new ad, I actually, who really helped us refine our pitch, and gave us some really brutal advice, which was brilliant. And it's gone a lot better since then, really. But it's also asking for feedback as well. So if you're, if you're pitching to somebody, or just showing stuff to someone who's probably not going to give you work directly, yeah. It's like, well, you know, how do you think that do you think that's the right kind of message and, and actually engaging them in the process rather than just blah Sending out them and then and then paying the bill and go Yeah,
Ayo Abbas 10:01
it's better to ask questions as well, isn't it? You don't want to be the only person talking in the room? think that that's such a thing? Isn't it listening? Actually do learn a lot.
Andy Matthews 10:12
Two ears, one mouth. Use them in that priority.
Ayo Abbas 10:14
Yeah, I know. It's hard. So, um, so in terms of kind of BD, I know when I've spoken to you, we've previously you built like this amazing database. When you were starting out, didn't you and you started doing things? Am I lying?
Andy Matthews 10:30
No, not sure.
Ayo Abbas 10:31
You are some processes, man, aren't you? So what kind of stuff do you do? What did you do for the kind of BD side to kind of get yourself going and structured. So you're out networking people. So now
Andy Matthews 10:43
we have a bit of a kind of a goal in terms of the we'll put systems in place correctly from day one. And that's all sorts of other kind of things. But one of the things that I've talked to you about is obviously, our CRM, customer relationship management system, which sounds awful, very corporate, but ultimately, it's, it does two things, it tracks contacts, you know, so contacts, and our network is our lifeblood, essentially. So how do we engage with them who gets a Christmas card, you know, when we get to it, who gets a mailing may, you know, get on an email mailing, so and then then we also track leads through there as well. So you know, a conversation turns into a lead, it gets a number, and then it goes to a pipeline tracker. And sometimes it dies, and we track why it's died, and also where it's come from, and so on. So the idea being that you can focus your attention on the right efforts to get the work in. So you know, if nothing's come from Instagram, okay, keep Instagram going, for instance, but it's not a core part of your pipeline at this stage. So it's relatively scientific, in some ways.
Ayo Abbas 11:46
It helps it helps focus your attention in your mind, right? Because you haven't, you can actually look back and go, Where did this work come from? What is working? Yeah,
Andy Matthews 11:52
and more importantly, not forget that a lead is there that probably just needs tickling along a little bit and might take 18 months to bring in? That's true. But you know, don't forget about it. Oh, God, just remember that, you know, avoid that stuff.
Ayo Abbas 12:06
It's easier, though, because you can actually send yourself a reminder that says, contact this person now. Okay, that take Yeah,
Andy Matthews 12:13
all those things in the system. And also, if you know, somebody else is looking at that contact, they can see there's an existing relationship and conversation there. And that, you know, not to interrupt that or start again, from fresh. And
Ayo Abbas 12:26
in terms of, I guess, which channels marketing channels, are there particular ones that are working for you quite well, in terms of your kind of BD, and you're getting out and winning work?
Andy Matthews 12:35
Instagram is good. But I think the problem with Instagram at the moment is that it wants you to do Reels, you know, to please the algorithm, but we just don't have the I don't have the capacity to to format all the stuff in the right way. For them. Sometimes we'll have a go. And they've been popular, I think we had some interesting structural stuff going on the site, and I made it real and it was, you know, the algorithm loved it. But you you didn't love it took it took a couple of hours to put it together? You know, that's probably not the best use of my time. But I think LinkedIn is probably one of the key ones for us. And I think, and that's most responsive, when when we free shared something on our personal account from the business account to me. Yeah. So, you know, so and some really, really quite a lot of engagement. And that's what it was, then, actually, a couple of times people will follow up via WhatsApp and start a separate conversation about that.
Ayo Abbas 13:28
Fantastic. It's really great. That is.
Andy Matthews 13:32
Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn does feel like it's going to Facebook a bit. But I think if you keep it, you know, professional and actually talking about, and people are genuinely interested in what you're doing and how you're solving challenges. And, you know, we're all trying to do those
Ayo Abbas 13:43
things. I always classlink seen as the kind of platform for business. And that's kind of what it is. It is but you're right, it has got a big Facebook group. I think they just literally made another algorithm change, which is going to supposedly okay, but um, what is interesting, I know that you were a big Twitter user.
Andy Matthews 14:04
Yeah. How do you find?
Andy Matthews 14:07
I mean, I don't we don't we don't, we don't really get much reach on it. I don't think it's something I really want to invest in at the moment. I mean, we do we do cross post to it. But I think I think it's in a difficult place at the moment, isn't it? Yeah,
Ayo Abbas 14:20
it's previously you could use it a lot, because I'm amazed to follow you there. But yeah,
Andy Matthews 14:24
I mean, personally, I still still use it more to find information, I think. And I find lots of things like, I don't know, straw bale construction or some that's on housing market or this annual some really interesting people posting there. And occasionally, we'll post a kind of completed picture or something, but I don't feel like it's our primary concern. I mean, one thing that does work well, for us is a kind of offline thing, which is, I mentioned earlier, sending Christmas cards, you know, a physical Christmas card to people reminding people there was a nice picture with a silly Christmas hat photoshopped on some snow actually works quite well, because actually, you know, it's like, middle of January, February, you know, people then start getting in touch saying, Oh, thanks a Christmas card and really appreciate it. Especially if it's late
Ayo Abbas 15:11
January that you've posted.
Andy Matthews 15:18
It takes a long time to do and we cut it a bit fine this year. So I sent one to Portugal, which arrived before many of the ones in London, which is just
Ayo Abbas 15:33
Hi, it's Ayo here. And I just wanted to tell you a bit more about the show. the Built Environment Marketing Show was set up during lockdown one as a way to help firms do better marketing. It was very much about having the conversations that I have with my friends and showing what best practice really is. In terms of me, well, I'm actually a generalist marketeer. So I guess I know lots of things about marketing and how to put everything together. So I could be talking about you know, PR, or understanding what to do next strategy wise, or figuring out how to get in front of the right audience or what messaging you should be using. Those are all things that I'm kind of really Skilling and understand how to do for my clients. I now work for myself, and I set up my own consultancy at best marketing and 2020. And I'm working with a range of engineering and architectural firms, and even prop tech firms who really want to, I guess, talk the language of their clients and their audiences and do something a bit different in terms of their strategy and content. If what I do sounds of interest to you do email me at IO at a bass marketing.com. And there's a ye o or head to my website, which is www dot abas marketing.com. For more info, there's also a link in the show notes by Is there any advice you would give her a practice looking to start? Get started now? I guess you started two years ago and you kind of went out? Is there any advice you'd go? These are the types of things you should be doing from day one. So anything you've learned?
Ayo Abbas 17:02
I think in terms of marketing, yeah, I think don't ignore it. Unfortunately, you have to do it. And if you're not very good at yourself, try and plug someone who is and talk to people. Yeah, conversations are what make people want to give you work. And they're buying into you as an individual, often, as well as you know, the company and the valleys behind that. And I think that one of the trickiest things, I think, is trying to find the balance between across social media posting all the time, and reminding people you're there.
Andy Matthews 17:34
But doing something interesting, and not just posting for the sake of assuming so you know, having content I mean, we're meant to have a content plan.
Andy Matthews 17:43
You know, it's it's still a little bit ad hoc, but you know, space posts out don't put them all in one. Kind of
Ayo Abbas 17:53
thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Andy Matthews 17:55
And to be human, I think it's probably the key thing. I think a lot of a lot of people just cover themselves up in this very professional wrapper. And they don't actually get to that human aspects, which people do actually really engage with maybe have other channels for that. Yeah. I think two more points, maybe is that just in terms of social media, I think it's not just a one way thing. You need to engage with people and talk to people and if someone's got a heart eyes emoji on your thing that is you can do is like it and reply back on the way to the hands emoji. You know what I mean? It's it's not it's not just a one way thing, but you know, and comment on other people's things and, and celebrate other people's work.
Ayo Abbas 18:35
Engaging, isn't it? And I think the more you put it in terms of engagement, because I have to say to people, you could literally start on LinkedIn and not post anything, but just engage with people. People, you still have those conversations, you don't even need to post. Yeah,
Andy Matthews 18:48
yeah. And I think the last thing is just that everything is an opportunity. You can turn almost every conversation to an opportunity
Ayo Abbas 18:56
and not feel achy.
Andy Matthews 18:59
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think when that you know, it could be an opportunity to help somebody else out, who then helps you out. Does it mean so it's not just about what can they give you but nice. conversation is about engaging with them getting in? And you know, I don't know we go and show people how CRM works.
Ayo Abbas 19:16
Well, that's the thing is like, when you build up event, I was really like, lots of people don't have that. It doesn't need to be a hugely complex system. It could be Monday or Asana, you know what I mean? It's like, but just having something and I think
Andy Matthews 19:29
you've cracked how to zero in a different way. I don't know. But you know, it's some skill that you can share, which then people will reciprocate, you know,
Ayo Abbas 19:37
totally. Okay. So moving on to you've been in kind of business now for two years. How has your marketing evolved? I know you did a Comms Crit recently with Rob and Luke and Bobby, didn't you?
Andy Matthews 19:48
That's right.
Andy Matthews 19:48
Yeah, I
Andy Matthews 19:49
think it seemed like a really good way of getting a bit of assessment where we have where we are. And that involved an hour phone call, Zoom call with then. And then a report, I think about a week later. And actually, it was quite complimentary in places, actually, which is quite nice. So, you know, I've made a complete mess of it. No, you haven't. That also made a very, very clear direct summary of where we needed to focus our attention and what we needed to sort out. Which is invaluable, really. And on the back of that we've sent since appointed Bobby and Luke on a retainer basis to help us with various other things. So the process of just talking out loud with them was also just really helpful. Therapy. Maybe we've been, we've been doing the right. We
Ayo Abbas 20:38
need to go this way. Yeah,
Andy Matthews 20:41
exactly. And I think I think the other part of that was that it, it shows just how much there is to do, it sometimes feels like a full time job in itself, keeping on top of it. So plugging someone in to help you and guide with that is really, really helpful.
Ayo Abbas 20:55
And they'll have systems and processes to help you fast track getting there. And I think it's just knowing how to Yeah, tackle because there was a lot you can do. And there really is,
Andy Matthews 21:04
yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not our core competency. So it's probably sensible, that we plug somebody else in who's is really, yeah. I mean, even just writing a press releases. It's a dark art that I don't quite fully understand. But you know, we provide them with information. They've done a brilliant job.
Ayo Abbas 21:24
But they do have connections as well. And I think it's also they'll have connections into who to sell it into and how, and what journalists. Yeah, and I think I think that it's that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't really cover that in my bag. But But yeah, I do, I do think it's worthwhile. And I think
Andy Matthews 21:43
the other part of that it'd be probably come a bit more confident, kind of standing behind our values, if that makes sense. Yeah, actually, when you start out, you talk about all these things and talk about what you want to do. But then later in that process, you've kind of done a bit more of it, and it feels a bit more authentic. And you can actually stand a bit taller with your shoulders, not quite so slouched and say, Yeah, this is us. And this is who we are. And actually, we do stand behind these values. And we're actually doing
Ayo Abbas 22:10
well, exactly and actually doing it's like, yes, we are doing a four day week, and we've been doing it since then. And this is the you know, and you can prove it as well. And I think once you've got easier just to kind of get this as who we are. It's not just some weird kind of, are they just doing their problems to purposes? It's like no, we are actually doing, I think that does help. This is like growing up, isn't it?
Andy Matthews 22:30
Yeah, I mean, it's I mean, it's a bit like greenwashing isn't it you can say all you want online, but ultimately you have to you have to deliver against ourselves and quite high values to, to then stand behind.
Ayo Abbas 22:45
And so how would you define success for your kind of marketing and business development? What's successful to you?
Andy Matthews 22:52
Interesting. I think in the short term, it's probably engagement, marketing. Yeah. Likes, Comments, conversations that come out of the back of that. Something that's always stuck with me is something about Jenni Montgomery, who talked about I think was going to some trade fair or something, but leading the conversation, and actually knowing what the conversation you're leading on, and then follow up with people and taking that conversation further offline. To me, I think I think that's quite a successful thing to translate those, those likes and heart emojis into
Ayo Abbas 23:30
conversations. I think it's definitely the one Yeah, I
Andy Matthews 23:32
think so. And then that turns in that marketing then turns into business development. And understanding the difference between the two, maybe, but those people do see a lot on there. They're very aware of what you do and what you put out. And they're quite quick to link in to what you've seen before. excuse the pun. But they will pick up and so
Ayo Abbas 23:56
this is surprising, you know, when you meet people, and they're like, how was your Pipedrive to blah, blah, blah? Yeah, huh. I'm like,
Andy Matthews 24:06
I think yeah, I mean, I think what's really nice is that people have a genuine interest in what we're doing. Other than our mothers, you know, it's moved beyond that. And it's, you know, it's sort of just friends and family, but that network has grown to kind of various people who are genuinely quite interested in what we're doing and our success.
Ayo Abbas 24:24
Fantastic. So final question. So what tip or advice would you give to a practice starting out now, if they're about to just go for global architectural domination? Maybe not quite that big, but you don't I mean,
Andy Matthews 24:42maybe Yeah, I think I think it's a journey. It's a journey. And that was a phrase my girlfriend uses, which for architects especially is that don't always look for the light at the end of the tunnel. Enjoy this funnel. That's so true. And actually enjoy the process. You know, We talked about all the time, we're solving a different challenge to me. Yeah, it. But I think it's also important to look back and see what challenges you've actually solved. Because you know, you're always, always moving forward. I think one thing is quite important just to kind of try and define and update your vision. And you know, we don't have a very detailed business plan or that we do have one. Yeah. But I think the vision is what can we stand behind the most? And that helps us judge opportunities to align with our values is this strategic in terms of where we want to be?
Ayo Abbas 25:35
And I think that changes as you do more things. And I think another thing is, don't be modest about your work.
Andy Matthews 25:43
Because, you know, there's this kind of tortured artist syndrome of architects, I will just won't say too much about this. But hey, we had a great time. Yeah, it was kind of brilliant meeting got these lovely drawing. So look at this cat walking over the drawings doesn't I don't, you know, it's about celebrating, I think, everything you do, and I think, showing joy in the process as much as the final photos, because if you're just showing the final photos, then
Ayo Abbas 26:10
it's a message 95%. So I think the thing is, lots of people don't understand what an architect does. And that's half the issue. And that's where the value is being eroded. And it's like, actually, let's share what an architect does. Absolutely.
Andy Matthews 26:23
And we're very clear about where we add value. And, and counter to that as well. We're clear, well, we don't so we plug in other experts, you know, copywriting, photography, marketing, brand, graphics, surveys, all sorts of things. But, you know, where do we add value really focus on that? And I think, focusing on those core competencies and having others to support us, probably one of the best tips I would bAyo Abbas 26:45
fantastic. Thanks so much for today, Andy for being a great guest. Thank you.
Andy Matthews 26:49
Thanks for having me.
Ayo Abbas 26:55
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on bass marketing.com. And of course if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
