Ep 57: Top five marketing mistakes firms make, Ayo Abbas and Stephen Drew
Welcome to the new season of The Built Environment Marketing Show.
Welcome to The Built Environment Marketing show hosted by me, Ayo Abbas from Abbas Marketing. This episode was recorded as a LinkedIn Live that I did with Stephen Drew from the Architecture Social.
I’ve seen a lot as a marketer, so I was pretty chuffed to talk through the Top 5 mistakes that I see firms make when marketing.
Our chat has now been turned into my latest podcast episode that is out today. It's a fun, high-energy, tongue-in cheek episode packed with hints, tips, banter and stories so you can avoid the pitfalls that we’ve identified.
Resources and Links
Viral post with to.scale co-lab with Architecture Social
About the show
The Built Environment Marketing Show is a podcast for architects, engineers and marketers who want to do better marketing make sure you check out our sizable back catolgue of interviews and solo episodes if you're facing a marketing challenge.
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Transcript
Ayo Abbas 00:05
Hello, and welcome to the Built Environment Marketing Show podcast series that looks at the best of marketing for architects and engineers. It's a show that's hosted by me Ayo Abass, a marketing consultant, content creator, speaker and trainer from a bass marketing head to a bass marketing.com To find out more about me and my work. Anyway, today's episode is taken from a recent Linkedin live that I did with Stephen Drew from the architecture, social. And it's all about my top five mistakes that I see practices make when they're marketing their business. It's a bit tongue in cheek, and we definitely definitely have a lot of fun. And it's high energy because it's me and Steven talking. So generally we both talk fast and have a lot of enthusiasm. So anyway, I'm going to keep quiet and let you get on with listening. Take care, bye.
Stephen Drew 00:54
Hello, everyone in the UK. I hope you've survived the hot summer. We're just about getting their autumns down the road. Now before you all swelter to the death, grab your wine, strap in and relax because we're going to be talking about a few hard truths today in terms of architecture marketing what am I on about all will be revealed. And I have someone who has been stuck and lumbered with me for a few years. However, they are going to make sense of the show. And on that fantastic note, I've got the lovely Ayo Abass from Abass marketing. How are you?
Ayo Abbas 01:31
I am good. I am good. How are you?
Stephen Drew 01:34
Oh, I'm spoiling sweating. But I'm also excited. And I'm so glad you are here to talk about marketing because you're a professional and I'm the novice. I've kind of learned it as I've gone and I need a bit of marketing tricks. But together we can talk about the subject today, which is the top five things that people are architecture practice directors, business owners, or market some marketers, not all of them not not some people here, but some of the mistakes that they make the top five ones that we see every day, which can be improved. However, before we do that Ayo for anyone that hasn't met you before, tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are.
Ayo Abbas 02:19
So I am Ayo Abass. I am an award winning marketing consultant. And I work for myself, I am digital Woman of the Year 2002 overall winner. I'm a marketing consultant. I also do content, I create content, because I love it. And I also have started training environment firms on how to do marketing. So yeah, that's kind of what my, what I do. I guess my background is I've done probably a lot most of my work with large engineering firms, the likes of Arup, and Ramboll and consultancies, like mace and stuff like that. So that's where my background comes from. And working, I guess, with many of the leading architecture practices from their kind of marketing side. So that's, that's me.
Stephen Drew 03:01
A very, very good, so the big to the small, the red tape to the I don't know what we're doing, please help me, what can we do? Um, yeah, I
Ayo Abbas 03:12
do work at prop tech and contact firms, as well as the some of the startups, which is always really interesting, because they're learning many of those founders are ex-architects who might be learning how to run, you know, comtech firms, which is really interesting.
Stephen Drew 03:25
Brilliant, I think it really helps to get perspective. And as someone in your field, when you see it all, you know, that's really informs that how you know, different styles of marketing different things. Now, before we go into it. So in case there's, you know, there's an architectural practice watching this, just like I'm busy! I'm winning projects, I don't have time to think about marketing. In your definition, there are Ayo, what is marketing and loosely, why is it important for businesses? Or anyone that's doing a bit of a hustle or whatever out there? Why should they think, Why should they care about marketing
Ayo Abbas 04:03
Do you know what, I think marketing is very much about clients, understanding who they are, what they want from you. And I guess as well, how you can communicate them, communicate with them to sell what you do. And I think that's really, really important. So getting to grips with that is basically how you, I always think marketing is mainly around, what's your message? Who are you targeting and what's your positioning, where do you want to be in that market, and then figuring out what you want to say to it. So that to me is what marketing is in a nutshell, and why it's important is it helps your business to grow and it helps you to get to where you want to be.
Stephen Drew 04:37
Exactly I think that really, really made sense that you were out there in the online world, the physical world and there's a lot of noise out there isn't it and we and we as business owners, or or even your own personal brand, I think half of it is about cutting through that noise now. I find it to be fun to mix it up and And I'm glad that you're brave enough to do it. Because while we while we will touch upon why it's important, I think, though, the biggest thing is that people think that they're doing marketing the correct way. However, there's a lot of mistakes that you can make. And actually, they're easy to fix. So in that analogy of the noise, you know, if you're making the mistakes, it's just not cutting through the noise. And so, I would like to explore how people can ninja style. Yeah, they can harm you, they can cut through the noise. But to do that, we have to identify what the heck everyone's doing, that's wrong. And you've seen a lot of website and we're not going to do names, no name, no shaming. No, however, we're going to learn the lessons, you're going to pass them on to the lovely Do-er, the listener, wherever you are, so that they can start making them now number one, that we you said Ayo before this, in your words, is that you think number one top mistake that you see is believing that buildings speak for themselves. I would love to know what you mean by this.
Ayo Abbas 06:18
Okay, so I think there is this whole thing, you know, architects are willing to design and visuals, and you know, telling their story, who have visuals, which is all great. And basically, you're visual creatures. So you understand, you know, this is how we communicate, this is what we do. But it's like, if you don't give people some context, if you don't give people some words, if you don't tell people what they're actually seeing or looking at, then you're kind of leaving it up to them to kind of interpret it in their own way. And yeah, basically, they could misinterpret it, you know. So I think it's kind of you want to share your story in your way. So you need to use words, as well as visuals, and they need to complement each other. And you don't tell that story that you want to give? What's your narrative? What What's that message you're trying to convey? So that whole thing around what are buildings speak for themselves, we don't need to do any marketing or just use images. It's like images, don't say anything, you know, they really don't on their own, and you're leaving that open to someone's own personal interpretation. And that's a risk.
Stephen Drew 07:21
very, very good. I agree. And also pictures can be misleading pictures. It doesn't, it doesn't showcase the full picture, always, or sometimes not even annotated at all. And that's why
Ayo Abbas 07:33
actually, if you look at a picture, I look at a picture, we've all got our own biases, experiences, the way that I would be very different to the way that you would just to be clear on its own right. So that's what you're leaving in people's mind.
Stephen Drew 07:46
Yeah, okay. I'm okay. Right. So that's the problem. Now, obviously, people should get in contact with you to fully solve it. However, to get snippets to go into the right direction. What should people be thinking about that? And in terms of images of buildings? Or how should they start to speak for themselves? How would you begin that process Ayo?
Ayo Abbas 08:07
And for me, it's about kind of storytelling. So understanding, you know, what it is about you or what it is about that visual that you're trying to communicate? And also understanding who it is for? Who's your target audience? What do they need to know about it? What things What messages do you need to convey to them, and really just breaking it down in that way, and then that's what your narrative is, and you can build out your story. And I think it's just understanding that really, and then finding ways to tell that story, and what the language and tone of voice that you want to use. And that will work with that audience. So it's all about that audience, how do you communicate with them in a language that they will understand? Yeah, rather than you, which is the hardest part?
Stephen Drew 08:48
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I tell you what, because part of the the architecture social is as a website, and if you ever want a hard lesson of reality, is to watch someone browse a website and the way you think you go through a project, or a web page or something, soon as you put someone else on, it's very revealing. Sometimes you you feel a bit awkward, or people don't understand where they're going. But it's very important. I mean, what do you think about that kind of analogy?
Ayo Abbas 09:15
Have you ever used, there's a tool called like, hot jar, and there's Microsoft clarity. And basically, it's like a, not spyware, but it's a way that you record how people are using your website, and you'll just see how a mouse is looking, or were they clicking, where they come in, or you know what words they're clicking on when they're expecting more. And it just tells you so much about how your website is actually used, rather than how you think it's used. And I think I mean, for example, when I redid my website, which we're gonna look at later on, one of the things when I put my first you know, first iteration on our website, there was on the Services page, I didn't have actual kind of, it didn't link to actual service pages like marketing consultant and stuff, but people were clicking on it. And that was one of the things I changed when I redid my website was actually I created separate pages for the services because people wanted more information. So using those types of tools you can kind of see, basically you get heat maps of where people are going, where they click, all that kind of stuff. But it's so so useful for that reason.
Stephen Drew 10:14
Very good. And you're right, we will go properly on your website. And I'll put the link here, which I briefly mentioned is www.abassmarketing.com. Very cool, we will check it out. Now if you still got the old hot Jar on, you might have some dopey person wandering about but don't worry, it's just me on the live stream. So ignore that information. I'm throwing you off.
Ayo Abbas 10:38
I've not anymore, actually, I stopped it. But when I was redoing it, that's when I used it.
Stephen Drew 10:42
I agree I used it at the start. And there was there's a there's always a there's a funny, there's a funny thing in the hot jar, which says the amount of rage quits, you know, which should be close to zero or 1%. And at one point it was 5%. So I'm sorry for all those people that were frustrated with the architecture social. But don't worry, we got there. We're getting there in the end. It's not it's an ongoing process. Now, on the theme of the ongoing process, let's go on to number two, which I can't wait for you to break down because I'm like, wow, I never would have thought this. So number two is viewing marketing as the colouring department. Not your strategic professional function. So I'm guessing what you mean, in the business, the marketing's in the corner? Yeah, yeah, yeah, let them I don't know. Uh, well,
Ayo Abbas 11:34
you know, yeah.
Stephen Drew 11:37
Put a little slide on the Instagram and then when it's all not working, go, What the hell are you bloody doing? So, okay, come on, tell us.
Ayo Abbas 11:46
I guess there are many firms that are quite old school and traditional still in our sector there, I say it. And some people do kind of turn around and go, well, we don't need to do any marketing, and kind of view us as being, oh, it's just a young person's thing, it doesn't really matter, not actually supporting our business. And basically, like the colouring in department, you know, we just give it to them over there. And we don't really care, you know, like, they just over there making pretty things. And that is so outdated. Some of the marketing teams I work with now, are just amazing, they're analytical, they're working with business leaders, they're looking at the numbers and looking at the growth, they're using digital to kind of inform their marketing campaigns. And they're really, really supporting their business objectives. And I know so many great marketers who are working in that way. And I think any firm, that's kind of viewing marketing, or socials, or digital marketing, as like, kind of colouring in departments, something their neice does over Christmas, whatever, you're missing out. And I think that that is the most important part. And it's understanding that it can help you as part of the kind of growth engine of your business and really kind of get you firing into and get you where you want to be. So yeah, proper marketing.
Stephen Drew 12:57
I agree. I agree. And I'll just say that it's never too late to change that, though, isn't it, you just start bringing them in, bringing them, in bringing them in, I work, I worked at a large anonymous company before, which which used to do in the recruitment sector, but they're definitely marketing people. And when someone came in, you know, they were, it was kind of like Insanity before, so another person comes in, expecting different results didn't happen. But suddenly, they started bringing on board that market here, bringing them into the business, you know, the top layer meetings, and then suddenly, things were getting done, you know, under more control then the marketeer would have other websites influence, the better, you're right. If they just have access to an Instagram channel, that's quite myopic, you have to, you have to look at the full picture of the business to really amplify the effect.
Ayo Abbas 13:49
Like what's your what's the overall strategy for your Instagram? And how would that feed into your overall objectives for your business? How to get your audience off Instagram and where you want them to be? So you can continue that conversation. So it's, it's looking at that kind of strategic angle of what it is you're trying to achieve? And that that's got to be the key.
Stephen Drew 14:07
Got you. Okay, makes sense? And, and for any marketers who feel like you're being treated as the colouring in department should probably leave that company. Have a good old chat with your boss after this go, like, what the heck am I doing? I really want to make a change. Let me do it.
Ayo Abbas 14:21
I do. I'm also going to give a shout out as well. We have a network called buildup, which is a networking committee, networking group, just for marketers in the built environment, marcoms people and so there's a whole network, it's about 600 of us around, mainly in the UK, but also around the world. We run events for marketeers as well you know, about upskilling, getting together, so you're not alone.
Stephen Drew 14:44
Brilliant. I'll put that in the description after this. Yes, please send me the link because I'm not as organised as you so that helps. Brilliant that's so cool. I'm glad that them. Okay, we've gone through this at a nice pace. I like it. Now, quick interlude, if anyone in the audience in the marketing department or interested in marketing, or any questions that come to your mind, feel free to jump in on this live stream. If not just come along for the ride? because I have a wine? No, it's totally cool. No pressure. But if you want to ask me probably not, or Ayo a question while she's here, then now's the time. Anyways, moving swiftly on. Number three, which I really, really agree with is not keeping up to date with the social media platform innovations and new features. Ayo, your opinion, what you mean by this, can you expand?
Ayo Abbas 15:41
So I think, you know, when you look at platforms like Instagram, and you look at platforms, platforms like LinkedIn, they are always changing, so, you know, those platforms invest so much money into their development, there's new features coming out almost all the time, they tend to prioritise like they they give priority to their new features, quite often, because they want them to work. Yes. So if you do try and adopt them, and you try and use them early, you can normally gain some kind of first mover advantage. And I just think a lot of firms are like, that's just how we use LinkedIn. And some people still only see it as a recruitment channel, for example, when it's far more, you know, this is how we use LinkedIn, this is how we use Instagram, you know, and the platforms are changing all the time, the algorithm changes, the look and the feel of the platforms, their interfaces change all the time, or where stuff is, you know, and the features as well. So I think it's just understanding that you kind of need to make sure that you're keeping up to date with what's going on, and what is working on that particular platform. So for example, if you're on Instagram, which is harder and harder to kind of get visibility for most of them. And, you know, a lot of practices, if you look at a lot of the kind of people on the platform now who have got, like 20,000 followers upwards in the architecture field, they normally did that a few years ago. So before everyone was on the platform, so that's the thing, it's like, it's hard to get traction now. But, you know, so if you're focused on what does my feed look like, on my feed needs to look so beautiful? That's not gonna get you that's not gonna get you growth. It's not gonna get you more followers, right? What's gonna get you follow us now? Videos and reels? You know? Yeah, I agree stories, communicating what your story and you're behind the scenes and stuff like that, you know, and using DM strategy, that's where you get the most interaction and engagement. And that's a different way of thinking. And each one of those little areas would need a different approach to them. So and they all need to kind of work together with your overall kind of goals for what you want to achieve as business. So there is thought behind it, but it's just understanding actually, what what's working now on these platforms. And it's worth reviewing that say, on a quarterly basis to make sure that you are prioritising the right areas of that platform, because it does change. So for example, I mean, LinkedIn is my baby, baby. And that's the one I really love using. But like, you know, LinkedIn newsletters, not many practices, I think, like, I've seen engineers, like Buro Happold have them, for example, they got great reach right now, you know what I mean, for getting the word out, you know, lives like this work really well, we do have to push them all because it does this weird thing where it doesn't show it. But it's just knowing how to use a different functionality on there. I mean, there's audio rooms, which not many people know exist. So it's just knowing all these different areas and how you can use them to your advantage. So for me, that's what you need to do is like, what's new on this platform? What can I try out and see how it works?
Stephen Drew 18:37
Yeah, well said, and well, I couldn't agree more. I'm glad you said that. Because I think architecture practices stay in the Instagram comfort zone. And I think that as you say, when reels came out, Instagram wanted the bit of that tiktok pie and the algorithm. And reels can be amazing. I collaborated with a very, you know, promising up and come in like architectural marketeer Sana Tabassum who does, you know, scaleto when we went viral. Loads of followers.
Ayo Abbas 19:10
That's exactly it. Right? Yeah. But it's just understanding and collaborations and trying new things. And just being slightly more experimental. You know, let's try and see what's going to work. I think we've all got to try that. I guess a bit more play. Right?
Stephen Drew 19:25
Exactly. And I was gonna say the truth is for that one reel that went viral, theres like 20 in the graveyard, which didn't, you know, and now that will link on to your next point. I'm only going to jump in one quick, quick, quick thing, because like you my I really like LinkedIn. I'm open to more, Thread's you haven't. You haven't won me over yet. Threads okay. But I do like LinkedIn and what I would say as you were right, the the mailing list is such an important one evryone should do that, the other want to really I think it's really good to engage the community is polls I'll try to do one every two to three weeks. Just one because I say to them as well, yes. And just keep them open. It gets people thinking and there's no wrong answer, gets the conversation going, polls and mailing lists. You're right. And you audio rooms. So underutilised, whereas, you know, two years ago, I was all about what was that platform clubhouse? Oh, you know, it was, it was, it was the cool thing. It was the cool thing.
Stephen Drew 20:26
But that's why they set it up, it was like it was their version of clubhouse, which, you know, and, but it's just trialling these new things and seeing isn't it. And like you say polls do work really well. carousels can be quite nice. It's just mixing stuff up and trying.
Ayo Abbas 20:44
Hi, Ayo here, and as you're a listener to the show, I just wanted to tell you a bit more about how I can help you get your built environment marketing done. If you're looking to set up a company podcasts are trying to figure out what content you want to create for an amazing campaign that really engages your audience. Or even if you want to get your business more up to speed in terms of how they approach digital marketing, and how you get kind of senior level people on board with workshops and training, then do bear me in mind, I'm actually a marketing consultant, content creator and trainer. But I work specifically with built environment firms just like yours. So I know the best practices and approaches, but also most importantly, how to apply them to our sector. You can find out more about my work at a bass marketing.com. Or feel free to email me at Ayo, which is a Ayo@abbasmarketing.com There's also links in the show notes to Thanks for listening. And now back to the show.
Stephen Drew 21:42
The last last last thing I'll say on it, because there's such a good point. So you know, I wanted to focus on Yeah, it's that one, the algorithm changes some platforms. Don't feel too emotionally attached to them. Because some people are like, Oh, Instagrams, my baby. And I'm like, Do you know what you got to just move on? I mean, the architecture Community Forum was big in 2021 of the pandemic Busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. Yeah. However, less people use it right now. And that's okay. But in my business, and I pivot towards the podcasts, the live streams, the polls where people's going and, and it's not a loss, you've got to move with things, you can't just stay attached to Instagram, because they will change the algorithms and all that stuff. And you and also don't just go on one platform, because you might you know, you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I mean, what do you think?
Ayo Abbas 22:29
Well, Twitter, or what was Twitter, that was your your your baskets are, you know, come on? Complete. Exactly. It's an absolute mess. So I think that whole thing, and I think the other thing I always talk about is that these platforms are free to use, right, which therefore means that you are, you're basically your data is what they selling right in adverts to other people. And it's their platform, you don't own it, which therefore means that they can change the algorithm or how they use it whenever they want. It's not yours to own. So I think the other thing is like using those social media platforms to grow your own list as well. So I would say having some kind of email list and data that sits within your own firm, and you can start that off really small, you start to have an email list and things like that, that is yours to own. Because if you are completely reliant on social media, like if all your eggs were in the Instagram basket and the algorithm changed, all my leads are suddenly dried up. It's like, you need to kind of have a have some safety there a safety net for yourself, don't you?
Stephen Drew 23:30
Yeah, I agree. And last last, last last last thing I'll say on it, because it's so good. It's so good. I think and know what kind of people on what platform so if you're, if your business is targeted that homeowners it might be a bit of the gram, it might be Facebook, I don't like Facebook that much. I grugually have it. But you know, for homeowners, conservatories, extensions, that makes more sense, they are not going to be people on LinkedIn, if you're targeting LinkedIn, and you're trying to do house conversions, I think you're in the wrong area. However, if you have, like, got some fancy design, or you're targeting a developer that you know, is prominent, maybe they're on LinkedIn, you know, that's the place to go. So know where your market is, and clearly define it and chase that as well. And that might change over time. You know, me, do you agree with that, as well.
Ayo Abbas 24:22
I completely agree with that as to totally right. Go where you go where your audience is, so knowing who you're going for, and like you say, homeowners are more likely to be Facebook, even Pinterest, you know, all those types of places, all those different places.
Stephen Drew 24:36
Yeah. Okay, cool. I got a quick question. Before we go on to the next one. We got a question that's come in. We can both rack our brains. Okay. So Anna Palmer says what are the most commonly used platforms now in the architectural community? In case we missed one off the list? Wow. So I mean, I will say that because I think there's still a niche or like the architecture social was quite busy the forum, I thought it was like bouncing during the pandemic, mainly, you know, people from students up to architects. Now, it's a bit quiet. Is that somewhere online? I think I think LinkedIn is the closest one that I can think of. I mean, there's a few ranting architects on Twitter who just rant about stuff. And
Ayo Abbas 25:23
I try to avoid those ones. Yeah, you know those ones like I just block them. I don't see them. it's too depressing, it's like, yeah,
Stephen Drew 25:33
I know. But where is it? It's a good question. The truth is, anna palmer, I don't really know anymore. Because my own community is not as active as I'd like, maybe it'll pick up look at this in a year or two, or maybe I need a marketing strategy.
Ayo Abbas 25:49
Today, I, I think the market is I think it's a lot more fragmented. And I think that's the issue, yeah, everyone's out. And you know, like, post, post COVID. Everyone's kind of like, "we don't have to do everything online now". So I think a lot of people are out and about, and I, for me, I think it's more about rather than where you are, it's about getting the best of both worlds. So how do you use your digital marketing activity to kind of boost your in person? Yeah. And I think it's that. So if you're going to an event, actually, I'm going to be London mill next month, write a post, get that out, see if you can start to help get set up, you know, like, so you're using the best of both worlds, you're using social media to be social? And I think that's kind of it. I think it's kind of the way it's being used, it's changing. And I think it's because people are probably, in some ways, slightly pulling back or not being as active as they were when we were in knockdowns. So I think it's just finding that way to kind of still get it to support what you're doing. I agree. I think it's kind of like TicToks doing really well for younger people. Right? I think it's you know, and I think it's depends on age group and what people prefer. I like LinkedIn, because it you know, it's more of a community and you can have good conversations in the comments. Twitter is ruined. Instagram, if you're not really into Reels. Yeah, I don't like Instagram.
Stephen Drew 27:15
And also like, because I, you know, the use of the word community. I mean, LinkedIn is the closest thing to that, in my opinion, because people can talk back and forth. There's the polls are less stuff. When I was running a forum, I spent a lot more time thinking about what is a community? What is that thing? And I think that people fall into this misconception that on Instagram, because you have a few followers, it's necessarily a community. I think that's an audience which you can participate. But like you said, I Oh, actually, community is engagement. It's about back and forth. You know, and
Ayo Abbas 27:48
You can't do that in Instagram, in the DMS, it's a one to one conversation, it's not a group conversation. That's missing in there. Do you know what I mean? It's not what you use it for? Yeah, I completely agree.
Stephen Drew 27:58
So so Anna Palmer, the reason we don't have a conclusive answer is because it is, as you say, Ayo, it's blurry. And it moves and is it in person is online? You know, and where is it? Where's that conversation? Go? And
Stephen Drew 28:13
there's also those I mean, there's also stuff like Reddit, isn't there, Quora, or Reddit, all of those types of more underground stuff as well, which I don't go into. But there are people that use those as communities. So yeah, I don't have an answer.
Stephen Drew 28:27
So yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll see what happens. Who knows. Okay, thank you so much for bringing in that question. By the way. Any other questions, feel free to ask while we're here. Now, number four, top the top five mistakes that people do. And number four on the list is trying a marketing activity once then saying it doesn't work and giving up too soon. Okay, spill the anonymous tea. Give me an example.
Ayo Abbas 28:57
So an example, I'm actually I'm gonna give you one of mine samples. So I wrote a blog, probably three and a half years ago, when Carillion went down when it went out of business. And it was literally about construction industry is broken. And I basically wrote all the stuff that I thought was wrong with the industry. And it went viral. And that was like three years ago. Last year, I got an email from a journalist at the Times who was writing a piece about the construction industry model. And my my backlog was on page one, and I ended up in the Times newspaper, with picture quotes. I didn't have to do anything. He literally lifted it from my blog. Now for me, if I'd given up on blogging and said, Oh, it doesn't always work, I don't have the time, all of that kind of stuff. But it does take time to build. I mean, that was something I wrote three years ago. And I got it out there and I think that's the thing that people quite often they just give up too soon. So oh, we tried to Instagram didn't work. Well, maybe you didn't try it in the right way. Maybe you He needs to warm that audience, maybe you need to find the right kind of tone of voice, or the right images to use. And I think it's that trial and error and that test and learn. And I think it's acknowledging that good things take time to build. I did a post recently on LinkedIn, and Instagram, which is around the timelines for different types of marketing. So like, if you're gonna do SEO, to even start getting like search engine optimization and getting ranked on Google, you know, it's gonna take you at least six months to even start to build up any traction. So it's knowing that type of marketing you're doing, and actually, what's the timeline for that, and giving yourself the space to kind of try, you know, and do incremental improvements. So I think that's the kind of thing and bearing in mind that a lot of marketing will start to compound over time. So if you start getting your tone of voice, right, you start getting your branding out there, you start talking about the things that you want to be known for, that will start to compound and I and actually has have a snowball effect. So I think it's about committing to it and then going for it and acknowledging it's not everything happens overnight. Unless you're doing like paid ads, but even that still needs tinkering with, and it still takes time to find the right audience and get them really firing. So
Stephen Drew 31:10
yeah, I I'll be honest, I've never dabbled in the paid ads, I do pay for jobs on LinkedIn for the business, which is sort of similar, a little bit different. However, you're right, you got to keep going. And I think YouTube's a great example of that the amount of people I know who've done a YouTube because YouTube, it's excruciatingly hard. You know, they all are. But YouTube in particular is really hard. You've got to do like 100 view video videos to get anywhere. Going, right? Yeah. And the podcasts you're right, is keep going. And sometimes I do an episode and I think alright, it was good was maybe my favourite? I'm not like a favourite. So that like kids, isn't it? These are all great episodes. But I mean, there's maybe some episodes connect more with me than others. Yeah, however, someone can really love it. And you could get an engagement from that, or, you know, and also, it's about, like you said, it's the compound fact, it's not about one podcast episode, it's about the bulk of work. And they appreciate over time, because also, as you quite correctly said, search engine optimization. I hate it, but love it, because it's so important. It's needed in the same concept. Because the more pages you have, the more things online and then Google over time, what it does is it identifies you as an authority, then and
Stephen Drew 32:36
and that builds, your domain rank and builds, yeah, yeah. And then it starts trusting
Stephen Drew 32:41
you more, and it's because you got loads of stuff. So I have a big thing of getting it out there. You know, it's through some of the architecture, social podcast at the start, go, uh, you know, do I like them or maybe have my opinions change, but I don't look back. And I think it's about going forward. And it's about a process, you have to keep going. And the last thing I'd say on it before the backup to yourself is I think architects can get in their own way of being perfectionist, they just get, you know, m&r about the details. And in the end, they don't put the thing out there. And that's because architects are amazing. And I agree that however, we just need to get it out there. Because sometimes when you're waiting for things to be perfect, you know, as you said, Ayo, it takes six months to even be recognised or Google, free, if you're lucky, whatever. But the more you faffing around with it, that could be time that Google is identifying you, and then you really improve. You know, if I look at the first architecture, social logo, it's a pile of rubbish, but you kind of you, you change it, not you,
Stephen Drew 33:46
but you got it out there. And that's the thing you got, you got it out there. I mean, I'm kind of like, you know, sometimes when people do that whole thing around designing in public, I think, you know, like, when they're building software, and they're actually like, you know, this is what I'm building. This is our prototype, and they get the rough thing out there so that people look at it, you know, it's not been done in isolation. I kind of think in some ways, we've some aspects of marketing actually sometimes just starting is good.
Stephen Drew 34:08
I agree. You will laugh I don't even practice my, sometimes I just released my website as is. It does crash now and then but you know, you're going to break the rules. I'm not a professional like yourself. Maybe you'd be reigning me in where some people you need to push out, you know?
Ayo Abbas 34:27
with you I would probably be Oh, my gosh.
Stephen Drew 34:30
Get Steve away from the release button. Spell Check it again. He's been editing it! I can see. Ah, I
Ayo Abbas 34:39
Sorry he lost attention there. sorr you you can just tell.
Stephen Drew 34:43
He doesn't know what he's talking about. Don't worry. I agree with you, however, through someone does think we know what we're talking about. Hooray!. Anna Palmer says thank you both for the good advice. She says that in terms of a business, maybe we're under utilising LinkedIn to be honest but great ideas. Yeah, yes to check out LinkedIn is good. And the last thing I'd say on LinkedIn is that they are spending a lot of time, effort. I was on their content creator programme. He was, yeah, you could do it. I mean, I really, I thought it was really useful. And I learned a lot from it. And I could see where they want to take it. And they want to bring that into LinkedIn. You know, the platforms are a lot less stuffy than, than people believe. I think it's really the way to go. And it was it was a good, it was a good, it was a good cause to be on
Ayo Abbas 35:40
I know. And I was like, I mean, I didn't I didn't apply when I saw. Yeah, when you're like, oh, I should have done that.
Stephen Drew 35:46
Oh, it was good. I really recommend everyone check it out. And if someone's like, I don't have a clue. What Steve's talking about is the LinkedIn content creators course pops up, I think twice a year, you have to do a video on it. And mine was loud and proud like this going well. I'm gonna talk about the metaverse, and then they Yeah, and then and then I got in somehow. So if I can do it, you definitely can, you know, it's open to everyone and all levels. Don't worry about how many followers you got, or whatever. There are people on the course that were just starting, as well as like some mega celebrities and stuff, you know, and yeah, I
Ayo Abbas 36:25
saw that it was really rad. Like, the levels were very, very different. And I saw quite a few people on it. But also, I mean, what's great about it is that you would hear it, hear it from the horse's mouth, which which is the thing that you want is to kind of understand where they're going as platform, which I think is fascinating. So
Stephen Drew 36:41
yeah, they were really, really good. So I recommend checking out that now the last point but certainly not the least was number five of your top five tips of like mess ups. In architecture marketing, the number five was expecting marketing unicorns one, person can't do everything.
Ayo Abbas 37:00
So there is that whole thing isn't there only like a generalist marketer or a specialist. So for example, me I am a generalist, I you know, I work across marketing, I can kind of, you know, I have areas in which I am especially I specialise more so like I like writing, copy and create content, stuff like that. But can I do everything am I expert SEO? No, but I might know the basics. Am I expert at PR know a bit because I started off in PR but am I, you know, like so it's kind of like understanding that marketing, you know, we have a kind of we all have different skill sets. So understanding what skill sets you need for in particular, not trying to write job specifications when you're looking to hire a marketeer inhouse. That kind of has seven roles wrapped in one, which some of the ones I have seen are. So you know, like when they're like you have to do PR, you need to do comms, you need to be able to do crisis coms you need to do how to do SEO. And like literally you need to work on bids. And you're just like so many different things when and that's when you're standing there going. That's when you're setting a marketeer up to fail. And that is when you will turn around and go oh marketing doesn't work very well does it? Well, if you're kind of not understanding how to write a job spec properly or, or what skills you need or and all of that kind of stuff or how to build a marketing team, then that is where the issue lies. So for me, marketing unicorns expecting us to be able to do everything from you know, being great on like making reels and video video editing to, you know, doing a bid, you know, let's be honest, one person doesn't have all of those skills. So I think it's about, you know, writing job specs and roles that are actually achievable. And also realising that we all have different areas of specialisation, even as a generalist and recognising those skill sets and staffing accordingly.
Stephen Drew 38:45
Yeah, I agree. That's really well said. And I think, you know what, while that's really important for marketing, I think that can be applied across the board. I think, I think, I think as a person, if you have a wider skill stack that is great, but you're right, when you have a wider skill stack, that's the definition is wide, and typically it won't be higher and everything you might have an area of expertise and and some little and you're right I mean, I squirmed when you said bid documents because the moment that goes on through a job spec, that's all that person will be doing. Yes.
Ayo Abbas 39:17
Your swallowed, your times gone and then they'd be like, but you haven't updated the website? Well, when?
Stephen Drew 39:21
Yeah, when when when the design director screaming at me that the brochure needs to change and that that that dude in London won't appreciate that age, you know, so it's a very nuance thing a bids, so it's just a completely different world. But okay, so those are really useful. So we we've done the top five, so first of all, there's little Woo, round of applause for that. Well done. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I had my plug my soundboard and I didn't know how I would do it. But you know, you get you get the real Bell.
Ayo Abbas 39:58
I like the bell, it's good.
Ayo Abbas 40:05
Thanks so much for listening to the built environment marketing show. Don't forget to check out the show notes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abassmarketing.com And of course if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon
