Ep 47: Marketing to help make the world a better place with Tristram Carfrae, Arup
Today’s interview is a special one. It’s with Tristram Carfrae who is a Deputy Co-Chair of Arup.
Arup is a global sustainable development consultancy, delivering work focused on producing safe, inclusive and resilient communities, infrastructure and cities.
In this episode we cover:
why Arup invests in marketing
why Arup is looking to broaden the marketing conversations they have from traditional audiences
the impact of digital and Covid on how they go to market
why and how Tristram approaches LinkedIn.
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Transcript.
Tristram Carfrae 00:00
If we want to really pursue sustainable development and help make the world a better place, then you have to engage with everybody around you. You have to get everybody on board the bus if you like. And therefore you have to be positively influential talking about it, you know, selling your message and getting getting collective agreement and buying.
Ayo Abbas 00:23
Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Built Environment Marketing Show. And I am your host, Ayo Abbas, Marketing Consultant and Strategist. Today, my interview is a really special one with Tristam Carfrae, who is one of the Deputy co-chairs of Arup. Arup is a firm I know really well and I still have many friends there. I worked there full time from 2006 to 2009, and also more recently as a consultant with the Arup University Marketing team. So in this episode, we look at why Arup invest in marketing. We also touch on why they're taking a broader approach to have a conversation with more of the general public and not just the industry. We talk about the impact of digital and COVID on how they've been going to market. And we also look at how Tristam was taken to LinkedIn to raise his own personal brand, and also that the firm. Oh, and just before we go into the episode, it's worth noting that Arup is an employee owned trust, and they actually refer to their staff as members. Anyway, I'll stop chatting now and let you get on with listening. Bye. Hi, Tristram, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you do a quick intro to who you are, and I guess your role in the Arup globally?
Tristram Carfrae 01:36
Thanks. So and thanks very much for having me. It's a it's a pleasure to be here. So my name is Tristam Carfrae. I am one of two deputy chairs of Arup globally. I'm a structural engineer by profession and still enjoy designing things. I also sit on our Group Board responsible for strategy and where we're going with a particular interest in our strategy for being excellent at everything that we do. And for using digital tools and new technology as much as possible.
Ayo Abbas 02:03
So in terms of kind of being excellent. How can a marketing team or a marketing function be excellent in your eyes?
Tristram Carfrae 02:12
Ah, well, you see, I think a marketing function, if you like, is measured by product or its outcomes. And in fact, excellence generally is about our projects, actually doing the right thing in the world around us, being excellent is about delivering sustainable development about improving the world for people, making greater biodiversity, using less carbon etc. And similarly, therefore, a marketing function is should be measured by to what extent and how clearly are those messages getting across?
Ayo Abbas 02:46
Fantastic, I love the way you've linked it to the outcomes of the overall business, and I think it's definitely the way forward. And in terms of Arup, investing in marketing, can you tell me about I guess why? Because Arup has always traditionally invested in marketing and seeing it as a valuable part of their operational performance. Now, why, what's your take on why that's always been important to Arup?
Tristram Carfrae 03:08
Okay, well, actually, I'm gonna start by contradicting you is that sort of traditionally, I mean, 50 years ago, we didn't actually do much in the way of marketing, because the view was that the projects speak for themselves, you know, help deliver really special projects that make the world a better place. And let them be be your ambassadors, if you like. So it's really only over the last 20 years that we said, hang on, that doesn't necessarily work very well. And we have to be a bit more explicit. But 20 years ago, our view was that we were marketing to our clients, or our future clients, or people who might wish to commission us to do work with or maybe a little bit of a view as to marketing towards the critics, the people who commentate on what happens in the built environment. I would say the big difference today is we see that we're actually marketing as a minimum to our future members, the people who might want to come and join us, and perhaps even to the public at large. You know, there's the concept of having a public brand, which has been quite missing in the whole of the built environment, except perhaps for Star architects. You know, most contractors, consultants, they don't think of themselves as having a public face.
Ayo Abbas 04:24
That's a really interesting take, actually, and in terms of having a public face. How is that different? How is it how have you tackled that? Because that's, that's quite a different model to use.
Tristram Carfrae 04:35
Yeah, and I wouldn't say we have tackled it yet. I think we're discussing it, if you see what I mean. I think social media, which I suppose is the topic of today is allows you to have a public face without, you know, a massive investment, particularly a massive financial investment. You know, you don't have to have the HSBC billboards at every airport in the world. You don't have to take advertising hoardings through every city and in which you wish to have a public presence, you can now target the whole world through a very simple medium.
Ayo Abbas 05:07
And when you're saying target the whole world are you talking about? In the business context? Are you talking about everybody? Society?
Tristram Carfrae 05:13
I think I'm trying to talk about everybody. I'm not quite sure you probably know more about this than me, but in theory, social media has no boundaries. It all depends upon which audience you can attract, but it could be the whole world.
Ayo Abbas 05:28
Yeah, I mean, it's a very different take because I think that whole kind of people, especially in what we do, people are actually no, you're talking to these particular audiences. And it's probably more the business audience than you are to the general public. But I guess, if we're looking at those wider themes that you're discussing sustainability, biodiversity, it impacts us all. So that's the message we are going to have to get out. And actually, I was at a talk last night, talking about net zero. And it's like, if we can't communicate what scope 1, 2, 3 is, and get people actually enthused about it. And have everybody, we're never going to solve it.
Tristram Carfrae 06:02
Absolutely, Ayo. So a part of our current strategy is including being influential. So again, written in our founders key speech in the 1970s, was the idea that we become influential through our work. And the change is no, if we want to really pursue sustainable development, and help make the world a better place, then you have to engage with everybody around you, you have to get everybody on board the bus, if you like. And therefore you have to be positively influential talking about it, you know, selling your message and getting getting collective agreement and buying.
Ayo Abbas 06:36
I completely agree, it's, it's a, it's a much bigger ask, but actually, you'll make a much bigger impact, right. And in terms of tackling, Arup is taking a more of a global approach in terms of how it markets itself these days, and I was wondering how you think that's kind of evolved over the years, and I guess the impact that you're seeing of it working in the business,
Tristram Carfrae 06:57
Yes, this is another very interesting topic, to me this, what you what you get for your efforts. So we we started marketing ourselves locally, if you like, you know, and you do it by by physical presence, you know, you get out and about, you go to conferences, you go to meetings, you know, you talk about your work, etc. And you moved from that into, as I said, the more digital space. And of course, we develop LinkedIn accounts in every city in which we operated, and we gave messages, and we believed in our local audience, etc. And then we found that actually, it's much more effective to send messages globally, which the local audience can tune into if they wish to or not, but they can also tune into then the messages, that are actually coming from other parts in the world. And we can learn from each other. And we can see a global perspective as well as our local perspective. And in simply in terms of, the return on effort, it multiplies up so we can still tag things with local, geographies, if you like, or cities, and say that they are of particular relevance to that. But it doesn't mean they're irrelevant to everywhere else.
Ayo Abbas 07:59
Yeah, that's, that's another big shift as well. And it's really interesting to see how it's being done, actually. And I think some of the professional services firm probably do that global thing. They have been doing it longer than built environment firms. That's for sure. And one of the things you do look after is you have an interest in is around championing digital innovation. How important has digital marketing been or what you've seen in terms of Arup, and how you approach it?
Tristram Carfrae 08:25
Yeah, well, I think it's sort of relates to the earlier response, which is digital marketing gives you this opportunity of, you, you can get reward that's unrelated to effort. That's why the big tech companies are so successful, you get what's called scale, you put in an idea, but if you can get a billion people using it, you get a huge return on that idea. So, digital marketing, I think follows a similar potential path. But if you can get your messaging right and you can get it consistent, and you can get a great followership now and you can get activity and commentary and engagement through your, your digital marketing, then you can grow your audience enormously. And so there's there's sort of no limit because the topics of today decarbonisation resilience, increasing biodiversity, not straining the planetary limits, the planetary boundaries. These are universal issues. They're not just for built environment, and certainly not just for built environment professionals, they're for the world as a whole.
Ayo Abbas 09:25
That's the only way we're going to solve them, that's for sure. Or even have any chance. I was gonna say so in terms of digital marketing, I one of the reasons that I really wanted to get you on here was actually because I love your LinkedIn posts, which I do. Especially when I found that actually you did most of them yourself, which I was just like, because No, it's true because I the reason I say that is because quite often when I'm training senior level people or having senior level discussions, they're like, oh, far too busy for LinkedIn, bla bla bla bla bla, and they don't see any value in it. I guess my first question is Why do you invest time in LinkedIn yourself personally?
Tristram Carfrae 10:02
So again, it relates to the earlier question, but it's the other angle of it, you know, is it an organisation like ours, we have 20,000 members. And we have a central marketing group, of course, we have regional marketing groups as well. Now, if we leave it to the marketing people to market us, then they have to go and find the stories, they have to go and talk to the individuals find out what it is that they need to do, then they have to write them up and send them out. But there's only a limited number of them, they only have a certain amount of bandwidth. So they can't cover everything. But if the 20,000 individuals in Arup, also put some muscle behind the wheel, and told their own stories, and the stories that they were aware of, they don't have to try and cover the whole territory of Arup. But if they just cover the things that they're passionate about, and keen about then we can sort of show the world a more multi-faceted, perspective of us a more authentic one, a more transparent one, and ultimately a bigger one. Because you'll get there will be more marketing going on if you see what I mean, it'll be more stories available. And I think people are very interested in what individuals think not just what corporates think.
Ayo Abbas 11:09
Yeah. And I actually one of the things I do like is that you do give your own opinion on things. And it's, you know, this is what I believe, I think, and I think that really does come across really well. And in terms of, I guess, time investment, how much time do you put into your LinkedIn and what you do around that? Yeah, so
Tristram Carfrae 11:24
you know, I didn't start this way. I've cheated quite a bit, I thought, let's see, let's see how we can do this. And to start with, I simply looked at the posts that Arup made as a, as an organisation and cribbed them, you know, copied them if you'd like, and reposted the ones I was interested in. So I was still doing a degree of curation. But it was stillthe body work was already done for me. Yeah, that was the first step. The second step was to say, actually, we can probably write them up better in terms of what what I think, but then I enlisted the help of my assistant. The wonderful, Amy Lewis, and she does most of the heavy lifting. So every week, every week, the beginning of the week, decide on the three posts we're going to make that week, and we try and do three posts every week. And then we decide on the topics, we look around, what do we know, what have we heard off? You know, what, what are we seen? That's interesting, what are we going to post on? Then Amy does all the hard work of drafting the posts, and then I just tweak them at the end and put us sort of why I think it's important bit, if you see what I mean. Yeah.
Ayo Abbas 12:28
But that's the thing. It's still it's still your words, and your views and your points. But obviously Amy knows you got well as well. And I think when you found a way that works for you, and you're still getting your opinions out in your way. And I think that's, that's the thing, there's always that process that people can put in place. And it's a way of still tapping into Arup centrally. But also it's got your own spin and your own spin is what really does bring your posts to life. So I think that's, that's, that's that special sauce. But it's
Tristram Carfrae 12:56
what I'm trying to say is if you can find a willing assistant or partnership, or it could have been somebody in the marketing team, you know, just happened to be that Amy's a good writer. So I work with her that, that it's not that much effort is what I'm trying to get to. And I think I would spend two hours a week, something like that.
Ayo Abbas 13:16
And in terms of your spending, say, two hours a week, what does that bring to you? What benefits?
Tristram Carfrae 13:21
I don't know, actually Ayo I don't know directly. I'm not very good on the metrics. But it brings me like you who are interested it brings brings sideways correspondence, I get quite a lot of LinkedIn messages from people who are interested and want to know about it more. It brings people who are interested in know about more about Arup, it brings people who want to join us. So it brings lots lots of different domains. I wouldn't there's no killer answer, I think is what I'm trying to say. But I think what I'm hoping, and I actually I totally do believe that you know, if most of Arup will doing similarly, it will increase our, our impact considerably, I think in a broad based way.
Ayo Abbas 14:03
And it does, I think there's like LinkedIn, I've got research that compared to like, if you post on your personal page, in terms of engagement, you get 10 times more impact from posting personally than you would from your company page. And like if you multiply that by 20,000 people in Arup, that's just powerful.
Tristram Carfrae 14:23
Yes and I think I've observed that. So I posted something sometimes, you know, from scratch, and then Arup has reposted it, you know, and normally I will get not not as much as 10 times to be honest, but probably five times as many engagements to the personal post as the Arup however, the flipside is also the case, Arup has such a big reach or such a large following that, their posts, sometimes their posts, our posts, our collective corporate posts can sometimes go rampant if you sort of
Ayo Abbas 14:53
Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean and then our its content is is lovely. Like, it's really nice. And so
Tristram Carfrae 15:05
just to sort of just to conclude that what I'm trying to say, I think it's not one or the other.
Ayo Abbas 15:10
Yeah, I always talk about a compounding effect. So it's kind of like your personal profile will help amplify our Arup and vice versa. And I think it works in that way. And I just think people aren't necessarily seeing it like that at the moment. It's kind of like, oh, no, it's over there. But actually no you support, this is gonna go way, way better. I think it's just that thing. But I guess in terms of like, senior level buy-in, because I mean, it's actually getting people on LinkedIn, it's something, I do get a lot of pushback about, are there any kind of any tips for or for senior level people who aren't sure about LinkedIn or? Or how even people like myself could convince senior leaders? This is worth investing in?
Tristram Carfrae 15:48
Well Okay, so one thing we've tried to are successful or otherwise, and I think they've changed the name, they were called Bamboo from Sprout. But anyway, there's a system by which we make it easy for people to post reposts things from Arup. So all you have to do is you get a list every week, and you just click on the ones that you want to post it. And that's it. It happens if you see what I mean. Yeah, but it doesn't, but that's not necessarily personalised. So the next step is you can take that, that piece and you can add a personal commentary to it and add it or you can post from scratch, you know, but I think to begin with, it's great to have be spoonfed almost, you know, I said, that's what happened to me. It's start by, you know, just reposting just actually start by commenting and liking other people's stuff, to be honest. That gets you a long way ahead.
Ayo Abbas 16:38
You know, you do that a lot as well, because you're just engaging.
Tristram Carfrae 16:41
Yeah, I tend to be lazy and tend to just like rather than comment, if you sort of comment occasionally. That takes time, you see, anyway, so reaching out your time and deciding what what is most beneficial. But trying, I think the answer is experimenting. I tend to only do LinkedIn with a little bit of Instagram, for example, I suspect I should do more Instagram and less LinkedIn. But I've sort of got used to a certain pattern, but I don't do Facebook. I don't do Twitter, you know, others prefer using Twitter. Others. I know some of my colleagues far prefer using Instagram. They're very visual, they like, the photographic thing. None of my colleagues interesting Ayo as far as I know, are Tiktok.
Ayo Abbas 17:25
Are you? Sure? There must be come on there must be some people from Arup
Tristram Carfrae 17:31
Oh, there'll be some people from Arup, sorry none of my sort of senior colleagues. Right. So all I'm saying is, not everybody is good enough to use everything. So we all find our homes our natural environmental, which is often just historic, and traditional and generational.
Ayo Abbas 17:49
Yeah, I tell you, I think you're right. I think senior like yeah, I don't think I've seen anything a level of people holding on to talk. Yeah, I'll look out I'll look out for them. And they are like, you know, I don't you do TikTok that much. I think my eight year old does it more than I do. I not point in I'm not doing this
Ayo Abbas 18:09
Hi, it's Ayo here. And I just wanted to tell you a bit more about the show. The Built environment Marketing Show was set up during lockdown one as a way to help firms do better marketing. It was very much about having the conversations that I have with my friends and showing what best practice really is. In terms of me. Well, I'm actually a generalist marketeer. So I guess I know lots of things about marketing and how to put everything together. So I could be talking about you know, PR, or understanding what to do next strategy wise, or figuring out how to get in front of the right audience or what messaging you should be using. Those are all things that I'm kind of really Skilling and understand how to do for my clients. I now work for myself, and I set up my own consultancy at best marketing and 2020. And I'm working with a range of engineering and architectural firms, and even proptech firms who really want to, I guess, talk the language of their clients and their audiences and do something a bit different in terms of their strategy and content. If what I do sounds of interest to do email me at Ayo@abbasmarketing.com And there's a-y-o, or head to my website, which is www.Abbasmarketing.com. For more info. There's also a link in the shownotes bye. I got a question which I met part of Build Up which is a marketing communications networking group that I'm in. And when I saw I said the committee a question I said, if you're speaking to Tristram, what would you ask him? So they sent me some questions. Isabelle, she said, How is the marketing function important to Arup's present and future success?
Tristram Carfrae 19:52
This that's such a big question. It's really important, right? The second answer is how is it important and it is about brand is increasingly important. It's not diminishing, it's going up in the world at large. I'm talking about here, you know, the people identify with the brands that they support. And it becomes part of their self identity. Now, this hasn't yet really taken off, I think in the built environment, industries, design and construction in particular, but I think it will, or it will have a greater impact. So it is really important, I think, for the future, that you have a brand. And it's important that that brand speaks about your values and what you care about and what you're trying to do. And you can't get to that point, unless you've been have consistent, storytelling and messaging, that support that it's you can't just invent a brand out of nowhere, I don't think I think people with really big budgets maybe can, but generally, you can't generally, it has to be what you've been saying how you've been behaving, and what you've been doing for a considerable period of time in our world, at least. Again, maybe in other worlds, you can invent yourself more quickly. And so for me, that's what the marketing department is all about. It's all about presenting the firm in the right way, in a true authentic and values driven storytelling fashion to the world around you. Because you if if heaven help us, you might occasionally make a mistake. And things actually go wrong. You know, your reputation is fundamental. And, and the way to survive mishaps is to have a really good reputation that can take the dent.
Ayo Abbas 21:37
Yeah,malso to actually to support your response back, because I think often is when something goes wrong. It's like, actually, how do you respond? Is that aligned with your values? Are you communicating that? Are you being open and transparent? Because I think it's that, isn't it? Where you kind of think, okay, not everything's gonna go right in what we do, because it can't. They're all learning. And I think I think you're absolutely right. It's that whole thing of carrying your brand and making sure that
Tristram Carfrae 22:01
Yeah, and I will, I'll add an opposite view of that, if you like, not an opposite, but the contrary here, which is, you know, social media has a bad reputation as well, because you can try and manipulate your audience, you can target your audience, segment them, and give them the messages that they want to hear, you know, this is what the politicians recently, perhaps have been doing in some countries. And that's not what I'm talking about. But just because social media can be used in that way doesn't mean that social media is bad, that you can still try and reach a more general, you know, less targeted audience with more general open authentic messaging, and help build your brand that way.
Ayo Abbas 22:35
So it's more or less being, or being authentic, which I think is really important. I mean, I mean, one of the things I do love is the, I guess, for I guess, the 20 years, Arup has invested in marketing. So I know like you've invest in photography and videography, and, and have done I mean, for as long as I've when I worked there as well. And I think that comes across, because it just means that actually how you communicate your brand, you have good assets, and you have good design, and you've invested in that. I think that translates into we design excellence as well. So yes, it all works very well.
Tristram Carfrae 23:07
Our weakness, actually, it's probably the other way round Ayo, we created tonnes of content and never even know what to do with we always go about it backwards. We start with an idea, produce the content. And then we think about, well, what's the audience? And what's the message, which is probably not the right way round but at least it's authentic.
Ayo Abbas 23:26
But you know what, you have the ideas, because I asked, I often think with marketing as well, you know, like, I'm often like, you don't need a huge budget, you just need a really good idea. I like think that through and you can make some really great content. And I think, especially for smaller firms, sometimes you will sit there and you're just like, you're sitting on a goldmine of information, and you don't even realise it, you know, from what you do, how you behave. You're, especially with digital, some work with quite a few proptech firms. And, you know, their platforms are a goldmine of information about the industry. Just because you're indie, I think it's just understanding how to use that information, and actually take that out and actually make, you know, add value elsewhere. And people haven't quite connected with that yet.
Tristram Carfrae 24:07
And that sort of goes back to your first question about digital marketing. Digital marketing is like an infinite amplifier. If you've got the right thing to say, you know, you can make it enormously loud through digital marketing, you can get to an incredible audience.
Ayo Abbas 24:23
I have a quick I have a digital question now. Because obviously because chat I always get it wrong ChatGPT and AI is it going to transform what we do?
Tristram Carfrae 24:32
it no. Well, yes and no. All technological answer advances if you like transform what we do. But transforms are very big word. So I tend not to use it. But they all improve what we do. They make what we do more possible they make it better than make our ability to do the right thing improves. Of course, there's also always a downside, the ability of the wrong thing tends to increase as well. But if you focus on doing the right thing, if you're A perpetual optimist like I am, then it's just it gives you another tool in your tool chest is another opportunity here, ChatGPT is a different route through to all the information on the internet. Yeah, that's a way of looking at it. It's just how do you want to use it? Yeah,
Ayo Abbas 25:15
and use any. For me, I think in marketing terms, especially it's goign to be a starter for 10 it can give you ideas, it can help you get to where you need to begin. And then we still add value in terms of our own individual thoughts. So I don't see it as a threat.
Tristram Carfrae 25:29
if you're thinking about just going back and forth, think about this the other day, the internet only really crossed my path. 23 years ago, 1999. I remember sitting down with a group of colleagues at Arup saying there's this new thing, the World Wide Web, what are we going to use it for? Yeah, that was only 20 years ago. And yet now, can we imagine life without it?
Ayo Abbas 25:48
No?
Ayo Abbas 25:49
You know what I was working. I was in Waterloo, and I went past IBM office. They had a quantum computer in the window. I mean, they're beautiful. But that's like the next thing, isn't it? You're looking at that kind of stuff going. Oh,
Tristram Carfrae 26:02
now that's much more difficult to get your head. It's definitive. You know, it's bits bits ones and noughts that's all it is. It's either black or white. Right? That's the only thing that a computer can do is black or white. Yeah. Quantum computer does probability. This is difficult. Okay.
Ayo Abbas 26:19
Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't get around the report that I know Arup Foresight wrote I was like, I don't understand I didn't quite get this what is it?
Tristram Carfrae 26:30
I don't think I do either. By the way Ayo
Ayo Abbas 26:33
That's good. Let's see. Because I was just like, oh my gosh, yeah. So it Alright, I'm gonna I'm gonna finish with my final question. So I know recently, you've kind of digitally, there was like a you had a whole day, didn't you? Were you doing digital digital webinars online globally? I mean, how have you found that they've worked and how they've kind of helped your business grow, and that part of the business grow?
Tristram Carfrae 26:59
That's an interesting question. I think it's changed over the last three years. So this little story, which sort of makes me laugh a little bit that I am, I went online and myself in 2020. Right. So the beginning of the pandemic, yeah, suddenly saw this opportunity. We can do things from home, we can do things remotely, and I ganged up with Antony Gormley, the sculptor and Thomas Heatherwick architect. But yeah, that's right, a couple of my mates persuaded them to come online with me and talk about how we can change construction into something that people want to watch and want to be participatory, and not something that is dirty, noisy, and people hate. Okay. So anyway, we got an audience of 2,500 people globally. And I thought, Oh, that's not enough.
Ayo Abbas 27:50
Just open your Rolodex, who else is there?
Tristram Carfrae 27:54
Actually what's happened. The point I'm trying to make is the audience participation to virtual events has settled back I think considerably since then. Over the last year, people have gone back to enjoying physical events, I think and being there. So the thing that we held recently was around the clock, five locations following the sun, where we got our clients and to come and talk to us about what they've enjoyed about working with us in the digital space with a physical audience and an online audience. So we're trying to combine the two. And I think, to be honest, I think the physical audience aspects of it probably works just as well. But there's the big stinger, if you like, is added that you get lots of collateral, you get lots of content, all those little snippets of what our clients have said about us. And what we've done are both useful internally, and also externally for the year to come. And then we intend to hold a similar event next year, and have another go at it learn from this year, and do it again. But it's, it's really this idea of you know, what we're trying to do is create outcomes for the world around us. And what our clients see as good outcomes is much more important than what we see as good outcomes. So it's getting, getting a view through getting a view of what we do from the perspective of our clients is the important bit and then having that on record to be able to use and reuse.
Ayo Abbas 29:13
Yeah. And then you've got like a whole bank of content from running, that event haven't you? And then it's just how do you cut it use it? You share it, isn't it? But I think it was interesting. I think it's the whole You're right. It's that in person and the recording it as well. And the hybridness, which is I think they aren't getting the online, right. I don't think anyone's completely got it right. Yeah. You just can't. It's not the same. It's just it's
Tristram Carfrae 29:36
not the same but but I'm not sure you can make it the same. No, here's my take on this. I think you give people a choice. Come on, come on, watch it in person, which is why we did it in five different places. So there's somewhere reasonably close to you. Or watch it online in your timezone. But you're watching it online as opposed to participating online. I think in those sorts of events. It's more subtle if you like, and then you can also then watch the recording later. Especially if we cut it up into manageable pieces.
Ayo Abbas 30:06
snackable pieces
Ayo Abbas 30:07
is what I like. Make things snackable Okay, so thank you so much for coming onto the show Tristram it's been a really lovely conversation. I did throw in some questions there.
Tristram Carfrae 30:18
It's been my pleasure Ayo. I thank you very much for inviting me.
Ayo Abbas 30:26
Thanks so much for listening to The Built Environment Marketing Show. Don't forget to check out the shownotes which will have useful links and resources connected to this episode. You can find that on Abbas marketing.com. And of course if you liked the show, please do share it with others on social as it helps more people to find us. See you soon.
